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Preview: Comments on Emerging Grace: TPFKATC - The Underlying Issues

Comments on Emerging Grace: TPFKATC - The Underlying Issues





Updated: 2009-01-13T09:02:40.316-07:00

 



Good Job! :)

2008-08-19T06:31:00.000-06:00

Good Job! :)



Ok, now I'm hooked. I continue to read and rumina...

2007-10-18T20:33:00.000-06:00

Ok, now I'm hooked.

I continue to read and ruminate.


Tom



Rock on!

2007-05-02T21:54:00.000-06:00

Rock on!



Just to show my lack of experience the response is...

2007-04-22T02:31:00.000-06:00

Just to show my lack of experience the response is at http://oldpete66.blogspot.com



I've posted a response at http://uk.geocities.com/...

2007-04-22T02:24:00.000-06:00

I've posted a response at http://uk.geocities.com/oldpete66

I'd appreciate any feedback

Pete



Your post and the whole thread has triggered me to...

2007-04-20T18:33:00.000-06:00

Your post and the whole thread has triggered me to write my own response. Comments appreciated - http://lordibelievehelpmyunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/04/tribe-formerly-called-quest.html.



Heidi,I think you said what so many of us feel. W...

2007-04-17T10:08:00.000-06:00

Heidi,
I think you said what so many of us feel. We still love God, still love the church, but somehow we've found ourselves outside the category of "normal Christians."

I especially could relate to what you said about mediated relationships. I think that once a person truly understands their freedom to enjoy their relationship with the Lord without a mediator, they are no longer able to be coerced or intimidated into a relationship where someone else presumes to stand in His position in their life.

Thanks for adding your voice to this conversation. I linked to your post in my most recent post today.



Wow indeed. Thank you for so graciously raising th...

2007-04-16T12:48:00.000-06:00

Wow indeed. Thank you for so graciously raising the issues that MUST be dealt with, either from within or without the church walls.

I wrote my personalized version of "Formerly Known" here:

http://livewithdesire.typepad.com/live_with_desire/2007/04/formerly_known_.html

Blessings,
Heidi



Paul,It's nice to meet you. I enjoyed browsing th...

2007-04-13T10:31:00.000-06:00

Paul,
It's nice to meet you. I enjoyed browsing through your blog and your group's website. It looks like we share a similar perspective about many issues.

shannon,
I'm glad that you found the post encouraging. Blessings to you.

Ron,
I often find myself wondering whether many churches and individuals will be willing or able to undergo the kind of transition you've described.
I think that dreaming God-sized dreams will be vital to becoming the church we need to be.
Peace to you also!

Merry Rose,
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the post.



grace, thank you for being the loving and caring w...

2007-04-12T20:00:00.000-06:00

grace, thank you for being the loving and caring way in which you put this. it resonates with me strongly.



Grace, boy Bill's post has been like dominos...str...

2007-04-12T14:36:00.000-06:00

Grace, boy Bill's post has been like dominos...striking a nerve,which leads to striking another...and on and on. I had been away for abit and didn't see Bill's orginal post till recently.What came to mind for me was the folks in existing established churches that are working through the missional expression of being church.The challenges for them are quite different than building something fresh outside or on the fringe.To get communities that have collected alot of excess and needless baggage over the years, to unpack it " all " and just keep the essentials and then move into a land of transition towards a missional church...one gets an appreciation of what Moses went through in the wilderness.
Anyways Grace, you, Bill, John, Jamie and many others have said it all beautifully...lets continue to dream God sized dreams. Peace...Ron+



I'm not alone anymore! All that I've been thinkin...

2007-04-10T13:31:00.000-06:00

I'm not alone anymore! All that I've been thinking, saying, feeling, expressing and praying about for so long are posted here. Thank you.



Grace,Great post .. exactly the same sort of senti...

2007-04-09T14:41:00.000-06:00

Grace,

Great post .. exactly the same sort of sentiments that me and our little group of dissidents have been expressing for some time.

Blessings,

Paul
--
http://radicalreversal.org/weblog/



Thank you Bryan. There's no such thing as late ar...

2007-04-09T07:57:00.000-06:00

Thank you Bryan. There's no such thing as late around here.

You are welcome Makeesha.

Thank you Lyn, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Gary,
I know you'll enjoy the other parts also. Thank you.



Well done as usual, Grace. AMEN, AMEN, and AMEN!I'...

2007-04-08T09:17:00.000-06:00

Well done as usual, Grace.
AMEN, AMEN, and AMEN!

I'll link Bill's post and yours on my blog. I'll also take a look at parts 3 and 4 by the other authors.

Have a blessed Easter!



Grace this was so well put and written - thank you...

2007-04-07T10:18:00.000-06:00

Grace this was so well put and written - thank you.

Lyn



thank you for your prayers grace. :)

2007-04-06T21:15:00.000-06:00

thank you for your prayers grace. :)



Wow. I'm a little late here, but I love what you'...

2007-04-06T16:05:00.000-06:00

Wow. I'm a little late here, but I love what you've written. I suppose I must go read the others' previous and post now. It makes me want to sharpen my pencil.



Bill,I left a more indepth response to you at your...

2007-04-06T08:35:00.000-06:00

Bill,
I left a more indepth response to you at your blog. Thanks for inspiring this conversation.

sonja,
I understand what you're saying. A wise friend recently told me that it is not about where we fit, it is about Who we follow.

jamie,
Awesome work on part 3!

john,
I am so glad that you added the perspective of the pastor. It is an extremely powerful and important post.

steve,
I appreciate your point. My complaint is not necessarily with a particular model, but rather with these issues regardless of the model. I felt like I have already posted on many of these things too. In fact, I considered linking to a previous post in each of the 10 main points.

Thanks ksg!

Makeesha,
It's nice to see you out from under cover again. I've been praying for you and David.

joy,
Yes, Bill's post was incredible. Also be sure to check out part 3 by Jamie and part 4 by John Frye.

I am amazed at the amount of information you've devoured since you began this journey.

john,
Thanks and you inspire me too!

robin,
You are so funny. I'll be by this morning. So what did I win? ;)

Thanks darryl and thanks for the link.

inheritor,
Great comments! I actually think buildings are helpful and sometimes necessary, but not to the extent that we have they made them monuments to our kingdoms. I think there are great possibilities for redemptive use of the buildings that already exist.

I also agree that ministry roles are in a state of transition. So much of that is dependent on the heart of the leader. But there is also a huge paradigm shift needed from the congregation in wanting the pastor to do it all.

As far as giving, I think that at least 10% is a good starting place. I don't believe that teaching tithing has been the right way to teach heartfelt generosity. Also, I believe that we have erred in teaching that giving to the institution is the only way to give.

As always I appreciate your kingdom perspective and insight.

Thank you Heidi!
Thank you Sue!

ed,
I agree that our gatherings will always involve human weakness, and part of our struggle and growth is in dealing with that aspect of ourselves and others.

However, I do not believe that we have to institutionalize those weaknesses. For example, because it is a human weakness to strive for power, therefore we create hierarchies.

Rather in our awareness of those tendencies, we can choose an alternate way. For example, because it is a human weakness to strive for power, we purpose to emphasize and model servant leadership.

My analysis was not of specific churches, models, or structures, but rather of issues. These issues can be addressed within the institution.

I believe that we can have healthy organizations that are willing to address the issues and be transformed into more missional expressions of community.

And yes, sadly, sometimes the institution lives on long after the community has died. Thanks for sharing your perspective.



Here's the real problem. Given the opportunity, we...

2007-04-06T04:02:00.000-06:00

Here's the real problem. Given the opportunity, we'll create our own institutionalize version of the Christian faith. The problem isn't the institution. The problem is us. Until we realize that the church is a reflection of human strengths and weakness we'll be deceiving ourselves into thinking I know better than those consumerist Christians. We are those people with just different stuff that we want to institutionalize. Grace, you and Bill may be correct in your specific analysis of specific churches. The reality is also true that we need organization to sustain and protect the community of people who share a common faith. The real problem is when institution exists apart from community. Community dies and the institution lives on.



GRACE,I did it.Check out JESUS THE RADICAL PASTOR....

2007-04-05T16:12:00.000-06:00

GRACE,
I did it.
Check out JESUS THE RADICAL PASTOR.



As I've found in the past, once again, you have gi...

2007-04-05T11:53:00.000-06:00

As I've found in the past, once again, you have given clarity to what can be an emotional topic for many. Thank you for that.



Wow Grace - amazing post! I've added as an update...

2007-04-05T10:47:00.000-06:00

Wow Grace - amazing post! I've added as an update to Bill's - really well written!



I think we are definitely in a transition time. C...

2007-04-05T08:44:00.000-06:00

I think we are definitely in a transition time. Coming from a very "religious" area of the country (still large numbers attend church due to tradition and the religious spirit) I see those churches that still use their buildings but teach according to the principles you outline as being valid expressions. I think there will still be those who are gifted as pastors and teachers who will equip others to do the work of the ministry and so there will still be forms of the old though the outward expression may be different. In our region there needs to be a very large paradigm shift away from "the pastor does it all" toward "it's our ministry, equip us to do it".
The money aspect is always difficult in America because we think it is our money. We at our church are being taught that tithing is a start, a discipline which the Lord uses to grow us into more sacrificial and cheerful giving. In our region I would guess the average giving is WAY less than 10% (Barna says that if ANY charitable giving is counted as tithing, then only 6% of adults tithe). If the Lord owns it all and scripture shows many places where believers give it all then perhaps 10% is a starting place most people need to go forward from.
I think that what you write about incarnational living, following the Spirit, and servant leadership are exactly what the church must be pursuing in order to expand the kingdom. I don't think a tract will expand the kingdom like a relationship prompted by the Spirit will do.



Wow, bang on. Thanks for this!

2007-04-05T07:55:00.000-06:00

Wow, bang on. Thanks for this!