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Preview: Comments on: GWC Podcast #34

Comments on: GWC Podcast #34



A Galaxy of Creative Content



Last Build Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 10:29:25 +0000

 



By: Shaymus22

Mon, 26 Mar 2007 04:36:20 +0000

Sweet



By: Lt. Slingshot

Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:23:50 +0000

Audra I love Stephen Colbert and he also thinks with gut, so you're in good company. :) As long as we've got Roslin and Adama my fears are mostly moot. "Say what you will about me but never question the plan" Homer Simpson



By: Pike

Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:52:55 +0000

13th said, “More is less” Do you mean "Moore is less?" Or "“Moore is more?” (I laughed, anyway.)



By: Audra

Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:27:27 +0000

Lt. Slingshot - sorry to be so late in getting back to you. I think you make a lot of good points, and I'm feeling myself pushed to the middle of this one rather than strongly to one side. I find myself sharing the same thoughts as Tigh's Eyepatch, in that BSG makes me constantly re-evaluate and question my own political and moral beliefs. You're right- I don't want someone who supposedly knows "what's best." That could be disastrous (and I think we've seen some of that in the real world). Yet I also question, like others, if the state of the fleet is one that can support a true, fair democracy. I know what you're saying is right, but something in my gut keeps feeling like it's wrong, too. Or that some part of it is wrong. I guess I need more time to give a better response. *grin* Elspeth, I love your comment - I would also not want a system to be restructured with the idea of convicting me in mind. Lol! 13th - Thanks for the cool link! That radio is awesome.



By: BoxytheBoxed

Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:54:38 +0000

i gots an originol of the species theory the F5 were the basis of all others Tyrol was the dorla origanol (sp?) being a mechanic would be very useful for all ither cylons Tigh was the first Cavil they kinda remind me of each other also they both ahve the old grey hair look vould Starbuck and Tory be the same line, an expirment for all other females Rosilin was the first 3 with the red hair



By: Ryan

Sat, 24 Mar 2007 04:32:50 +0000

EyePatch, Your comments about democracy moved me. At the risk of bring in real life scripture, they reminded me of a dream mentioned in the old testament. Of a stone, cut out of a mountain, without hand set forth that would one day become smooth and large enough to fill the whole earth. I have no interest in this forum of discussing the biblical meaning of this dream, or of drawing it as a parrallel to the Galatica Universes. I only mean to draw this comparision, that any rought thing become polished by conflict and creates slow and painful change. But it is that slow and painful process that creates thing of great beauty.



By: BoxytheBoxed

Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:47:34 +0000

andrew saw next ep. preview on SciFi, a new one andrew fell off seat, err boxy head hurt i boxy cant wait boxy being payed 10$ to talk in 3rd person



By: The 13th Cylon

Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:10:18 +0000

Hmm... I'm not too thrilled about the extra episodes because from all that I've heard for season 4- "More is less". Rumor has it that if season 4 got the boost up to 22, that it would be the final 22. Either way, I'm just glad that RDM and Co. will get the chance to finish this story. And word is that SciFi will decide in the next few days whether or not they liked the Caprica pilot script. It'd be cool if we got that after BSG is over. There's so many great spinoffs they could do with this it's incredible.



By: Tigh's Eyepatch

Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:08:04 +0000

Lt. Slingshot wrote: "You’ve touched on bigger questions that I think the writers intend. Are there times in history that a representative democracy is incapable of coping with? If so what system should replace it? A sub-question in that would be… Are humans capable of sanitizing politics from their systems for any sustained duration? Personally I think the answer to the last question is a resounding no." Lt., for me, that's one of the great things about BSG, it asks tough questions of its audience, and more often than not, there is no straightforward, easy answer, just like in real life. You have opinions, different priorities for different people, shades of gray- this makes for compelling drama, not to mention following in the tradition of most great Science-Fiction, in holding a mirror up to our society. BSG takes problems that affect us in the real world, and spins them so that you're forced to look at them from a different perspective. I've found myself on more than one occasion questioning some of my own most closely-held values because of something that the Old Man or Roslyn has done which I may not agree with, but I can see the rationale and thought process behind the decisions they took. As an atheist, it took me a while to get into the whole religion theme of the show (again, BSG pushing my boundaries). Once I recognized and got past my own knee-jerk reaction, I started to come around to precisely what you say, Lt: religion in the BSG universe is a practical thing, with its roots in historical events and very literal real-world relevance to their scriptures. It certainly makes for compelling television, especially when you combine it with the political dealings going on in the show. Mack, as Audra said in an earlier post above, democracy is a changing thing, and one of the things I like about BSG is that they don't have it all figured out. They've been through a holocaust, and are trying to hold on to some of the conventions of government from the Colonies, possibly in part because it's what they know, and are comfortable with. Should there be another system? I think the consensus on here is 'yes'. However, just as in real life, no one knows exactly how to go about it, or what that system should be. The RTF is going through the same process, and I would be very surprised if they actually did figure it out and reached a workable balance. After all, we haven't found it in real life yet, either, and our society is not a rag-tag fleet running for their lives in the face of a genocide! Daggits FTW!!!



By: Tigh's Eyepatch

Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:48:15 +0000

Well, it looks like they've ordered the back nine episodes for Season 4, and confirmed the movie/special 2hr episode... http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=2&id=40676



By: The 13th Cylon

Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:29:23 +0000

I was thinking about what the cliffhanger is going to be and I've decided that I'm betting everyone discovers they're a daggit. Imagine the uproar! And I don't buy the idea of them all being Cylonz, unless there's model #1.008, 1.009, etc. We've only got 5 left. And the idea of the music only being heard by Cylonz along with Xena's apology to the white curtain dude would fit in very specifically with Tigh (New Caprica) and even more so with Anders (parking garage and NC).



By: Mack_the_Mike

Fri, 23 Mar 2007 00:34:01 +0000

Tigh's Eyepatch, As Bismark said "Politics is the art of the possible." And while I may agree with you that the political system in the Fleet is too accomodating to the will of the people, I don't see any possibility of switching to system that is more of a mix of Democracy and Aristocracy. It seems to me that the three realistic possibilities are 1) status quo ante (on the form of government, if not the personel) 2) Military Dictatorship 3) A much more populist system with much less room for leaders to follow their own best Judgement. "We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and then do it." -- Anakin Skywalker



By: Lt. Slingshot

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:08:41 +0000

oops meant Eyepatch! No offense Eyeless! :)



By: Lt. Slingshot

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:07:09 +0000

Eyeless, there is a little “benevolent dictator for life” streak running in me so I can’t disagree too vehemently with you. The dire situations that face the fleet could have easily overwhelmed them many times if not for the leadership of Roslin and Adama. You’ve touched on bigger questions that I think the writers intend. Are there times in history that a representative democracy is incapable of coping with? If so what system should replace it? A sub-question in that would be… Are humans capable of sanitizing politics from their systems for any sustained duration? Personally I think the answer to the last question is a resounding no. We just aren’t built that way and it’s often to our detriment. I would never give power to even a benevolent dictator unless of course it was me. :) I might take it back to when Sharon echoed Adama’s question of whether humans deserve to survive. It’s been left unanswered to this point in the show. For all the good we are capable of we are still capable of equal evil. And for the record, I’ve voted each week as approving of the President. I’m not sure exactly how you get accountability without being unfettered by trappings of the political environment. Ok I do know how from real life. You have a single party control all three branches for 6 years and you get no oversight. Whether it is subtle or outright blatant at times, the writing of the show is in many instances an allegory of our times. I can’t agree with Dee and Zarek, the system isn’t broken, it’s the people in it that are broken. Even when you get outcomes you hate, democracies will eventually even things out. Could this result in the entire fleet being destroyed? Well sure but I doubt they are going to do that to us. Hell look at the backlash from just killing Starbuck! You are probably right on with the religious leader aspect of the show though. The one thing religion in the BSG universe has going on for it is that it has practical use. There’s no bending of vague interpretations to fit a need. Find the arrow, put it in the statue and voila! You’ve got a star map! See twelve snakes on a podium and the next thing you know 12 Vipers are blowing the hell out of a Cylon base. If Roslin can’t use that to stay in power then she’s a pretty poor politician but I’d still prefer that she have to be a politician not Our Glorious Leader.



By: BoxytheBoxed

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 21:02:18 +0000

"My only hope is that they do not end the show with Vipers and Raiders flying at each other (ala the Pegasus/Galatica conflict), but if an internal “hurricane” is occurring among the humans and the Cylon(s)z attack we could be left saying “how can they get out of this one” much like we were last season. The absolute worst would be a little tag line coming up saying “two years later”….." ill put five dollars, seruosly that happenes



By: Saberhawk

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:20:18 +0000

Great cast as always. I look forward to next week. Several people have come down on the Tory as F5 theory and while I respect that as a hypothesis there is something about it that just down not hold true to me. Perhaps I get to hung up on 3's comments to much, but I still believe that 1) her apology held meaning and 2) it was to a central character within our story. I first thought that Baltar was too obvious and that Starbuck held a truer ring, but with Starbuck out of the way- we are back to either Baltar or someone else that she owes an apology to. I will wait until next week to get the shock as I'm sure there will be one. My only hope is that they do not end the show with Vipers and Raiders flying at each other (ala the Pegasus/Galatica conflict), but if an internal "hurricane" is occurring among the humans and the Cylon(s)z attack we could be left saying "how can they get out of this one" much like we were last season. The absolute worst would be a little tag line coming up saying "two years later".....



By: Tigh's Eyepatch

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:20:58 +0000

Slingshot, you know, you're making some really good points. I can't say that I completely disagree with your appraisal of how Roslyn and Baltar handled themselves during the election (although I do think that Roslyn was painted into a corner, and kudos to her for not bowing to the temptation of further politicizing the moment by pandering to the fleet's desire to colonize NC, but I digress), but that goes to the crux of my argument, and the question of tearing down the system(s): *should* a democratic system, with elections and the risk of bringing the toxic touch of politics be embraced by the leadership of the fleet, given their current, extremely precarious situation? Dee and Zarek are absolutely right: the system is broken, and needs to be replaced with something more appropriate to the RTF's current situation. Roslyn and the rest of the leadership cannot afford to play the politics game- the risk of having an outcome such as what occurred in the last elections is too great for the fleet. Am I advocating for the rise of the 'Aristocracy', as Baltar puts it in his 'zine? No, not at all, I think the answer lies somewhere in between, some kind of system that includes a strong measure of accountability towards the fleet, but at the same time ensures that strong leadership is allowed to lead, unfettered by the trappings of a political environment. If Roslyn's cancer turns out to be true, or even if she manages to perpetuate a lie (if she' really doesn't have cancer), we're probably going to see much more of a move away from politics and elections, as she plays into the whole 'dying leader' role. It will be interesting to see how this works itself out, because it seems like they'd be going from a democracy (even if it's in name only, after all, as you correctly state, Roslyn's never been elected) to a messiah-based theocracy. That is, of course, assuming Roslyn isn't revealed as a Cylon next week. LOL



By: uroborus

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:50:46 +0000

Hey everyone, !st post, and I haven't seen anyone say this, but my first reaction after Roslin said her cancer had returned is that she is lying. Now, overall, I like Roslin, but as is said in the podcast, Roslin as a person is different than Roslin as president, and taking into account how she has been the last few episodes, this is making more sense to me. What better way to manipulate the fleet, especially against Baltar, than to bring the prophecies back to the forefront? She is extremely savvy, and what better time than now, when the fleet needs this type of focus? Maybe I am just distrusting by nature (I don't think so, but I would think that), but the more I think of it, the more of a possiblilty it is. This is in line with what Ryan just said above. If anything, politics, especially during tumultous times, is about manipulation, and this is the best play she has. Part of my reasoning, or feeling, is the way she says it on the stand. It just doesn't ring true. Personally, what if she is taking the kamala simply to induce the visions? They are at a turning point, a fulcrum where they need hope and direction, and it is obvious that the fleet is breaking apart, as Zarik said, and Baltar's trial is going to be the last catalyst. Anyway, share your thoughts, shoot me down. Great podcast once again. It truly has become CRAAAAACK to me...



By: Dan, the Lord of Kobol

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:17:14 +0000

Chuck, Audra, Sean. Just finished the podcast tonight. I've got to say, one of the things that really struck me about this episode was something that Audra mentioned. When Lee's cross-examining Roslin, and she's just pleading with him not to take it too far. It really put a personal touch to the episode in my mind. There's all these bigger-than-life events happening in the series recently, like Baltar being tried for war crimes, Starbuck dying, Lee resigning, Cylons chasing the Fleet - and right in the middle of it all is Roslin pleading with an old acquaintance to do her this one favour because she needs it. At the risk of sounding a little sentimental, I found the scene kind of touching. Anyways! Other than that, great podcast, really great comments, and I can't wait for both the episode and your podcast next sunday!



By: Ryan

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:15:37 +0000

Leaders do what is best for the people, but in a democracy the leader has to convince them, they have to help them understand. When Roslin was confronted with the will of the people, she knew they were wrong, and instead of trying to convince them about finding Earth as the scriptures said, or helping them keep hope that there were better things to be had, she resorted to trying to scare them and then fix the election. In short, she did not lead, she manipulated.



By: The 13th Cylon

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:15:06 +0000

Audra- Not sure if you happened to see it already, but here is the radio that I mentioned a few frak parties ago and Chuck mentioned on this podcast. http://www.amazon.com/TEAC-SL-D80B-Player-Radio-Black/dp/B00008BWMB/ref=pd_bbs_11/104-6283395-6075966?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1174533214&sr=8-11



By: Lt. Slingshot

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:13:10 +0000

Eyepatch, I’ll wholeheartedly agree that a leader should not succumb to the will of the people when they are motivated by irrational emotion but Baltar was not the leader at that point, he was running a campaign. The question was should that system of free elections that could allow someone like Baltar to be elected be torn down and rebuilt and the same question in regards to the legal system that might get him off. I still contend it was up to Roslin to win that campaign. Suggesting that they table the idea until after the election was a cop out on her part (as well intentioned for the fleet as it was) because she was losing ground. Instead of finding a strategy that would swing momentum on her side, her reaction was first to delay the question and then failing that, attempt to steal it. That’s not the fault of the system, that’s the fault of the politician to make a compelling argument. Look at our current situation in the US. The approval rating of our president is horrid and yet he was elected twice. I don’t blame Nader for pulling votes away from Gore or a wartime situation for Kerry not getting the votes. It was up to the candidates to persuade enough voters to put them in office regardless of the circumstances. The outcome was certainly not what I would have wanted but that doesn’t mean the system is broken. Earn the votes and you can make the tough decisions. For all this babble the system still isn't being followed since, as it has been brought up a million times, Roslin has never won a single election.



By: Tigh's Eyepatch

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:27:07 +0000

Lee mentioned it had been two weeks since the events of Maelstrom and his conversation with the Old Man in The Son Also Rises, but I don't think too much time passed between The Son... and Crossroads Pt. 1. Maybe an extra week?



By: Cavatar

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:53:48 +0000

Does anyone know how much time has passed between Maelstrom and Crossroads? We go from seeing Anders with a broken leg to now being able to walk, just a thought. Cavatar



By: Tigh's Eyepatch

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:12:40 +0000

Lt. Slingshot: Settling on New Caprica was definitely the will of the people, but a leader's job is not to pander to the will of the people, who may be emotional, or succumbing to mob mentallity, or maybe just not have all the facts. A leader's job is to do what's BEST for the people, keeping their best interests in mind. Two very different things, and sometimes they are at odds with each other, such as during the election. I think that's why Roslyn tried to table discussion about settlement until after the election, unsuccessfully. Democracy, while a great way to have people's voices heard, is too dependent on politics. And politics, unfortunately, does not make for great leaders. Sometimes you do need that strong hand to make the tough desicions. I think the RTF is definitely in a position where they need strong, decisive leadership more than they need elected officials. This is why I've always given Roslyn and Adama the benefit of the doubt, even when I don't always agree with what they've done. It ties into what Zarek said about the gardener on Cloud 9 at the gathering of the Quorum of Twelve back in Season One: the RTF's society needs to adapt to their current conditions, as opposed to simply continuing on the same course as if nothing had happened. He may have been talking about economics and such, but I think the principle applies here as well. By the way, I just watched the episode for the third time, and I noticed something interesting. When Tori is at Joe's, as she's walking in, she's being followed by a very Starbuck-looking extra. . . I had to freeze frame it to catch her- it's not Kara, but she sure looks like her. While I don't subscribe to the 'Tori is Starbuck theory', it does seem worth mentioning. X_O "It's in the frakkin' ship!"



By: Gray

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:44:09 +0000

Okay, I am so late for work but I have to say: If Luc's parapraising is accurate, which I'm sure it is, I am horrified on a personal level about this fling with Tory and Anders. Yay for Roslin for calling her out, even if it was cut. And I do think one could argue that they might have known each other from the Resistance days. Original point though: gross. Seriously Sam, from SB to Tory? Go after Racetrack or somebody kinda hot.



By: Gray

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:33:45 +0000

What a frakking awesome podcast. I was listening to it last night and I got so hyped up I couldn't sleep. Everytime yall pointed out something that hadn't occurred to me yet I got so excited. Crossroads II is going to be ridiculous and I can't believe the length of time they're asking us to wait. I'm with Sean though, I think we're totally gonna get a little Starbuck "morsel" to flip us out and whet out apetites. PS- I don't know a helluva lot about TOS and it could very well have been posted already but I think it's worth commenting on all the talk of it being so much like season 1 again. Isn't it interesting that in each of the Season finales, Starbuck has been out of commission and presumed dead by at least some of the Fleet?



By: ghostdog

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:02:25 +0000

Did anyone notice that after the girl came in to ask her "god" Baltar to bless her child, Baltar asked Head 6 how many people that had been....Head 6 responded "Five, not including all the letters, etc."....Could that Five be an indicator that Baltar is really the person that the Final Five worship (from the scriptures)?



By: ByYourCommand

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:00:25 +0000

Dee leaving Lee over this issue wasn't a surprise to me. Her soldier priorities and loyalties come first in her world. Lee has defected from the lifestyle, sorta. Maybe she needs time to cool off, see how this whole thing works out. She may have a fundamental disagreement with Lee that, for her, is a deal breaker. Unlike cheating, she can't stomach sharing a life with a man she believes is doing something fundamentally wrong, because it affects the survivors as a whole. Doesn't mean, depending on how things work out, she doesn't come back with her head hung low asking for reconciliation. Obviously, Lee's grandfather had a profound effect on him. The whole comment about "Be good, but not too good." was more of a way of saying be your own man, even when it's everyone else's opinion he is dead wrong. When Lee asked Lampkin how he knew his grandfather, and Romo replied "I hated the man. He taught me everything I know." Let's face it, for court room dramatics to illustrate his points, he is brilliant. His commitment to defending even the pond scum of society, as Joseph Adama did, is unwavering. Lee is taking it all in like a sponge, and to me, solidifying and differentiating himself, as his father and grandfather did at some point in their lives. It was Lee who had the idea of infecting the resurrection ship to wipe out the cylons, and his father clearly had reservations about doing that. Although in the end, he gave the orders to terminate the prisoners, as a soldier would when ordered by the Commander in Chief, he didn't throw Helo in the brig because of this internal conflict. Bill abandoned Bulldog, for the greater mission purpose. Tigh vented the shafts when the Galactica was on fire. When Bill was helping Saul into his bunk, and Tigh apologized for embarrassing him, Bill said "Saul, you're my oldest friend. You don't embarrass me," it was a pretty profound insight into both mens' internal commitment to the other. It will be VERY interesting if the speculation about Tigh being a cylon turns out to be valid.



By: Matt

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:34:02 +0000

Jaz, So say we all!



By: Jaz

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 05:48:23 +0000

I also want to say that Lawyer Bill rocks! I love his contributions to the 'cast. Thanks!



By: Jaz

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 05:45:21 +0000

Elspeth - you know I really felt pretty strongly that Dee did the right thing by leaving Lee, but after reading your argument, I think I'm on the fence now. I'll have to mull this one over. And yeah, you have to try way harder than that. We're a nice bunch at GWC. Does anyone miss Starbuck as much as I do? :)



By: Lt. Slingshot

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:08:17 +0000

Elspeth, to paraphrase Pike when I said I thought I had posted an idea that would get me flamed... "You're going to have to try harder than that" :) I think a lot of people are happy to see Lee getting back to his roots like when he was willing to put a gun to Tigh's head to stop a military coup. He's not even close to being my favorite character but that is the one quality I always respected. For now it's made him a lonely man. Sorry you've had a craaaapy day.



By: Elspeth

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:40:58 +0000

Thanks all for your responses. Your agreement wasn't what I expected, and it brought a huge smile to my face on a really craaaapy *wink* day. Anyway, I think Dee's idea of re-building the system is really bad... I am not disagreeing that maybe it should be (rebuilt). I am going back to my geography argument here...Since representation, laws, etc. were land-based, they need to re-evaluate their situation and compensate for their new landless situation... With that in mind, I would want no part of a system that was rebuilt right before my trial, with convicting me in mind.



By: Joe

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:13:50 +0000

Whoa, ByYourCommand... Welcome!



By: ByYourCommand

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:03:15 +0000

First time poster here at GWC. BSG fan from the miniseries premiere. Relatively new listener to the Watercooler. Roslyn and Admiral Adama - I think if they could hook up, they would. However, both of them have unique, larger commitments that preclude them from really ever making "it" happen. Roslyn is a politician, and when the Presidency was thrust on her in a time of her first personal meltdown w/ the original cancer diagnosis) to what we see as present day has never changed. Politician, its her identity. From the time way back in her story, when she was in bed with President Adar asking him to back off the teachers union. And brokering an agreement with the teachers' union, and the government. LOL. For Roslyn, it's certainly not for "moral" issues that they haven't hooked up. For Adama, he has a failed marriage that he celebrates every year, and deals with everyday in his son. If there is one thing Admiral Adama is, it's a soldier. In the miniseries, he was naturally going back to Caprica to retaliate, and Roslyn had to broker for the civilian population's lives by arguing that "We run. Cylons won." When he told Chief to "Get his fat ass" in the ring for a real pounding, and proceeding to give the speech about "being soft." Then fast forward getting in his own flesh and blood's face telling him, "You're a soldier! Act like one!" this episode. His identity is soldier. Everything else is human, and pales in comparison to being a soldier. Same for scenario for Starbuck and Apollo. They know they have "higher callings", even if they aren't conscious of what they actuallly are. When I take the lloonngg view of the whole RTF saga, I see that if there is one thing every single character on this show shares, it's a conflict of some sort. Which is why the President gave an official pardon to every single survivor of New Caprica. I think Baltar's trial is just another illustration of the "Don't throw stones in glass houses" type of ordeal that they keep having to re-visit because they don't understand it. Goes along with the theme of this has all happened before, and it's happening again. They keep doing the same thing, expecting different results. "Are you alive?" were the first words Number Six said to the Human diplomat at the Armistice station. "Prove it..." When she says to Baltar (right before the nukes drop on Caprica, but after she tells him she is a cylon) that "Humans have the most amazing capacity for *blah blah* and self deception." "How do you do that?" Six asks him curiously? I think 3 years later, she STILL doesn't have her answer, LOL. Thing is, neither do they - the colonials. They just know they have the capacity for it, some more than others, and it can't be "controlled" absolutely. Which is why pardons and alcohol are necessary, lol. Ever notice how you never see a drunk skin job? The final five may just be the final 5 models in all of current cylon [...]



By: Lt. Slingshot

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:34:58 +0000

Audra, I have to ask a question since you brought it up. Baltar won the election on a premise he didn’t believe in but the people did. Wrong or right, that was the will of the people that put them on that planet. Fault the people, not the system. It was up to Laura to make a better case and run a better campaign. Would you rather have a world where Laura or any other person in power gets to fix elections because they “know” best? That would have been the outcome in this particular instance. It would have been better for the fleet but as a citizen myself living in a similar democracy, I would never condone that type of action or cede my rights in that situation. As for Lampkin, he’s guilty of petty crimes due to his kleptomania but in the court room he’s following the same rules as the prosecutor. Are you faulting him for being a better litigator? We the audience know that Baltar is innocent of the crimes he has been charged with and know about things he hasn't been charged with that he is guilty of. The people in the court room don't have our knowledge. He did not conspire with the Cylon(z) on New Caprica and those are the charges. How can they convict him on things only we the audience know? They don't have that proof. Any system will be flawed but looking at the Colonial rule of law it seems a lot like our own. Flaws or not I’m not willing to tear something apart simply because there are a few outcomes we don’t personally like and I'd say the same thing to Dee. Taken in it’s entirety it looks like their system has worked for many years. Otherwise Lampkin’s sarcasm is right, let’s just throw him out the airlock now. To put it in perspective, I'm pretty sure that OJ killed his wife but I wouldn't scap our entire legal system because he had better lawyers. Sometimes that's the way things work out but most of the time we get the right outcome.



By: Audra

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:34:11 +0000

Armando wrote: "When people start saying that the system is broken it means they’ve already given up on democracy." I completely disagree with this idea. Dee said the system needed to be taken apart and re-built. If she didn't believe in the integrity of the system (the way it's supposed to be), why would she want it to be re-built? Wouldn't she rather have it replaced with a new system if she didn't believe in the concept at all? Not to mention the fact that democracy has improved a lot through American history because of people who stood up to challenge its problems. At the time they were considered radicals; now they're heroes. So I'm going with Dee on this one- the "system" allowed Zarek and Baltar to manipulate the fleet with the settlement idea. Roslin was leaning on the winning side until this maneuver, which was done entirely to win the election, not because Baltar or anyone in his camp wanted to truly settle there. And if the system in the trial depends on the matchup between the conniving, immoral, rule-bending Lampkin and the crappy, disinterested, last lawyer left in the fleet representing the prosecution, then perhaps the system IS broken.



By: Nash

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:36:06 +0000

@HailBaltar, I also think it would be really cool if the radio waves are coming from Earth. They only travel at the speed of light so if the fleet keeps FTL jumping closer and closer, they should hear more and more modern radio signals. Maybe even some TV eventually (ala Contact). Given BSG's political slants, they'll probably arrive at an Earth in the distant future that is totally under water and filled with greenhouse gases.



By: Armando

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:29:01 +0000

Elspeth, I'm with you on Lee as well. I think he's doing the right thing. When people start saying that the system is broken it means they've already given up on democracy. Even people like Baltar (who is a slimeball, but I'm not sure if he's really guilty of anything he's being accused of) deserve a fair trial. The saddest thing about Lee's position to me is that his wife would rather leave him than support him on this (yet she stuck around while he was sleeping around with Starbuck. Go figure!).



By: Cavatar

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:10:43 +0000

Writch I love the names, “Neo-Colonials” is perfect!!! We need go get a symbol, a plat form and everything. Even TV attack adds with voice overs would be cool. Cavatar



By: Tigh's Eyepatch

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:56:27 +0000

Lt. Slinghshot, I think Adama seemed a little drunk in his scene with Lee, which obviously didn't help him in being as. . . um, tactful as he could have been with his son. Elspeth, you're right, the Old Man hasn't been handling his son in the best way possible, but that doesn't mean that Lee isn't getting played. It just means that Lampkin has more fodder for his manipulations, and Lee has more of an excuse to whine. Between both Lee's and Bill's grief for Starbuck, plus their general father/son issues, there's a veritable minefield between the father and son now. Very explosive, very compelling stuff. Again, Lee's not getting out of this one intact. He might not be my favourite character, but he sure is fun to watch, kinda like Baltar is fun to hate. Luc, I haven't listened to the RDM podcast yet (I'm very spoiler-wary, so I'm waiting until the season is over to listen to this one and part 2 together), but if they did cut a scene implicating a Tori/Anders tryst, I'm glad. It seems like it would have come out of nowhere. I mean, to the best of my knowledge, Tori and Anders have never even been in the same room together, much less have started seeing each other. I even found it a little odd that she'd be at Joe's in the first place. . . If this were the case, though, I don't think guilt or apprehension over some sort of a 'relationship' with Anders (save common Hylon-hood- see my post above) would account for her behaviour, anyway. Tori doesn't strike me as the kind of person to get so rattled by personal stuff so as to affect her job performance the way we saw in this episode. I think I have to agree with earlier posts, she's feeling a Boomer-esque phychological breakdown, right down to the zombie-like appearance. Proton, that's an interesting point regarding Starbuck's death being a signal of some sort to the final five. I'm sticking to my guns on the whole '2nd phase Hylon sleeper agents' theory from above. I'll admit that the Chief is a bit of a stretch, but I think it fits. Tighclops. . . I like it! X_O "It's in the frakkin' ship!"



By: Lt. Slingshot

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:27:03 +0000

Nice call Eyeless. There is a streak of prophecy in the Agethon family I hadn't thought of. When Hera starts talking, we'd better listen. :P



By: Lt. Slingshot

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:25:07 +0000

Elspeth, I'm right there with you on Lee. Out of all the characters he's the only one who has seemed genuinely concerned with preserving the law since the beginning of the series. Just about everyone else in power has played fast and loose when it has served their purposes. I'll grant they thought they were doing what was best for the fleet but that's a slippery slope. I was pissed at Adama too for that exchange with Lee. Yeah he just put his drunk friend and XO to bed after he'd gotten nailed on the stand but he wasn't thinking clearly at all. Lee is sacrificing a lot just to do what's right under the law and his father and wife should have seen that. Hopefully they will down the road.



By: eyeless

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:01:41 +0000

Did anybody notice the parallel between Helo's doom prediction this finale and his wife's last season? Helo: "The weather's changing, Felix." (Adds that a storm is coming.) Boomer: "Something dark is coming. Not anything specific...not one thing." Something Dark is Coming is also the name of an awesome track from the season 2 soundtrack, btw. Those aren't exact quotes, but it's interesting, and I'm hoping they deliver and match season 2's devastating twist.



By: Writch

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:48:40 +0000

Proton: "Tighclops".... That's precious! And I like your posit regarding Bastille Day ala Baltarianists. RDM mentioned the his likeness more to Charles Manson than Jesus (although I love Sean's quip about Baltar's choice of fasion on the Baseship: "Gaius of Nazareth"). Now...All this discussion about Tory being a Cylon sounds, familiar.... Oh yeah, MAYBE that's because I said it 3 podcasts ago! >:| http://galacticawatercooler.com/2007/02/26/gwc-podcast-31/ (Ctrl-F for Writch) No one would listen to me! I tried to warn you! The signs were all there... And I agree with the Watercooler Trinity about Zarek being a Sleeper of a different kind. I believe he may be the trump that steps in (next season or the Summer Movie, Gods willing) to 'solve' a great deal of the problem that hangs in the air - or black, I should say - after the inevtiable reveal next week. And Matt/Cavatar here are my (late) Galactica Political Party suggestions: - The Adamlin Party? Call them the "Neo-Colonials" - Baltar's Party? I like to call them "the Disestablishmentists" (the long name challenge) - And Zarek's third party: The Quorumists



By: Proton

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:01:01 +0000

Here's a few theories I've got based on my own thoughts and discussion elsewhere. I've seen the preview but haven't looked at the spoilers. 1. If indeed the music is linked to the final five cylons(activation signal perhaps?), why is it happening now of all times? Proximity to the nebula or earth seems likely, but would it be possible that the awakening of the final five has to do with the death of Starbuck? Perhaps her destiny was to die and become a messenger to the final five (exploring the space between life and death anyone?) . Giving them the sign that it was time to reveal themselves for what ever purpose they might have. 2.I've got this feeling that this whole deal about the aristocracy and how they've been telling us about it for a few episodes. I think it's possible that we might see another massive power shift like last year on new caprica except instead of the cylons taking over humanity it would be the lower classes that have become disenfranchised because of the exceedingly tyrranical tendencies of both the Admiral and the President. The verdict in Baltar's trial will probably be the catalyst of this revolution, I'm thinking a 3-2 not-guilty but Adama overrides it and orders Baltar killed reguardless. Which would set off a chain reaction in the fleet fueled by the "Cult of Baltar" that would lead to both Roslin and Adama stuck in jail. As for leaders, Baltar would certainly be the frontrunner, chief might have enough support via the union, Lee could be a possible underdog due to his breaking away from the military in the defense of his principles, and of course there's always VP Tom Zarek lurking around. I'm not totally sure about Military leadership, Lee might fill the void but I think he's done with the military for a while, Helo seems the logical choice here since nobody wants crazy old Tighclops in charge of the military again.



By: Elspeth

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:19:43 +0000

Wow, I am going to be unpopular... I agree with what Lee did. Yes, he has been turned on his head with Starbuck's death. But where else was he going to go? He was CAG. I have a hard time believing he would be allowed to become XO with his dad in the next highest rank. If I were Lee, I would be BORED. No potential for expansion or growth. Dad teases him with law books and untouched dreams, then yanks it back and calls Lee a liar. Yes he is most likely too naive, but such is youth. I bought that Lee believes in the system. With that, Dee should have been more supportive. Yeah she should have pissed that he quit his day job without discussing it first, but she should have grilled him on that, and being closed off rather than on following what he believed. IMHO marriage is not about always agreeing with each other, but rather supporting each other despite differences … once you walk out, it is very hard to reconcile. I also felt really annoyed at Adama (whom I normally adore) for being obnoxious in the trial. He really has no business being there, and I find it a double standard that it is just for father a judge, but unjust for son to be on the defense. *Getting ready to duck...*



By: Luc

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:58:50 +0000

In the RDM podcast he mentions a scene that was cut where Roslyn grills Tori about her having an affair with Anders, saying that Starbuck is a hero for many in the fleet and that her behavior is scandalous. So maybe she is not hearing the weird radio signals but rather is torn about that...



By: Zigdon

Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:38:53 +0000

A quick note - TV listing says next week's show is from 10:00-11:03 EDT. So in theory, tivos and such should automatically pick it up, but I know I wouldn't trust that without double checking.