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Preview: Comments on My Private Casbah: Will The Real (Feminist) Women Please Stand Up?

Comments on My Private Casbah: Will The Real (Feminist) Women Please Stand Up?





Updated: 2017-12-15T18:18:36.028-06:00

 



my comment i just left on their site:"anyone who a...

2007-02-25T14:42:00.000-06:00

my comment i just left on their site:

"anyone who agrees with the decisions of the Canadian Court and of VRR is not a feminist.

there i said it. you are not a feminist.

if a trans-woman wanted the services of the center then she was well within her rights to receive them. they should not have rejected her just because she wasn’t born female. if she was socially perceived as being female and lived her life as a woman then she is one.

what’s next? excluding women who haven’t given birth? who are disabled? what if they rejected women of a different culture because they were not raised in the patriarchal western world and are not truly women?

how shameful for these so-called ‘radical feminists’ to reject a sister. and how shameful for the so-called ‘feminists’ on this site to support their discrimination.

the women’s rights movement (in any country) will fail when certain ‘feminists’ practice the discrimination that we all fight against.

p.s.- how truly radically feminist is it for someone born and gendered male to reject the respect, education and privilege that came easier to him because he was born male and to live ‘his’ life as a woman?"



I just read this for the first time. I'm very disa...

2007-02-23T13:41:00.000-06:00

I just read this for the first time. I'm very disappointed with the Canadian court decision, although I'm not surprised. Maybe in 10 years they'll be ready to rule in the other direction...

As for Heart's thread, they've been saying the same stuff for at least a decade now. Back in the days of the Ms. Boards, Rich consistently referred to transsexuals as "freaks" and "psychos"; he's cleaned up his language since then, although not his attitude.



“Can someone please explain to me what's so radica...

2007-02-17T21:46:00.000-06:00

“Can someone please explain to me what's so radically feminist about claiming that certain women should be discriminated against?”

There is a radical Feminist definition of woman which Heart’s board ignores. Before I present that, I’d like to offer one thing, brint which is your use of the word “transwoman” which is essentialistic. In that discussion you faltered on a couple of phrases of essentailism. You also accepted the trans split of sex and gender where radical feminists actually do not.
It is essentialist to use the word transwoman. If gender is a socially constructed, it socially true but not real in nature. You forget that people going through reassignment have many different pathes in life. Heart says that being a man starts at birth. How foolish. No one says, there is a three year old man. At any rate here is a radical feminist definition of woman.

“The person in radical feminist thought is necessarily socially constituted, affirmatively so through an active yet critical embrace of womanhood as identity. Catharine MacKinnon – Toward a feminist theory of state.

Woman is an identity of a person who has been socially constituted as a woman. The identity is critically embraced. In her 2006 statement, Lisa Vogel of the MWMF called Woman-born-woman, “a valid gender identity”. That’s all it is. Heart is treating the identity as if it is an object reality and therefore not a class of people which is not radical or feminist. There are kids who clearly begin as kids and are erased by the trans movement and there are fathers and husbands who have no social constitution as a woman nor do they have a critical embrace of that identity. I would suggest that kids are valid since that’s how they organized. However, I would challenge a claimed identity of someone who has sought life as a man, aligned himself with socially male patriarchal institutions such as a husband in a marriage and sought out male rewards and benefits, publically said he was a man and aligned himself with a woman as a man in this society. No one makes a man do that. That do that because they choose to. I think calling these people women does erase the lives of women. Certainly their path is quite different than that of the kid given that husbands and fathers chose to live as men, husbands and fathers. There is a huge functional and life schism in your monolithic application of the prefix making the lives of women invisible. How can you compare someone who went through reassignment at the acquisition of agency the same thing you call someone who has a wife and has chosen to live as an adult male, husband and father for twenty years? Would you deny that those twenty years as men are not socially constituting as men and that they sought it out?

So there you have centrally radical feminist positions. It challenges heart and brings into question some on your usages. Why should anyone call someone who has chosen to seek out life as a man –a woman? Patriarchy literally means the rule of the father and it appears to me that you are prepared to call people who chose to be fathers and husbands – women.
Heart is involved in identity politics and anything but radical feminism. Radical feminism becomes awfully inconvenient to people calling themselves radical feminist. Why resort to actual radical feminism when it’s far easier just to make it up?

In that thread, one woman admitted there is no real definition of trans. But that would have been better stated if she had just said, she didn’t know of any. Trans is 1.) an identity 2.) a community 3.) a political movement 4) an ideology.



I so appreciate the title here about real feminist...

2007-02-17T19:17:00.000-06:00

I so appreciate the title here about real feminists. Here was a commented derisively direct at you bint. Notice Rich's comnent:

Yet here is what is being sold on hearts board as feminism:

“female=a biological category

woman=a social construct

The two are not synonymous. They are like apples and oranges and as long as people attempt to use them interchangeably, they’ll never understand why many, many people disagree with discrimination against transpeople.”

Transwomen use them interchangeably all the time. Every single day. So do their defenders. But only feminsts are called on it, even when they’re not guilty of doing it: you just assumed that people here didn’t know that, that everyone here wasn’t as smart as you are.

That’s not nice."



Well Rich let’s see what Catharine MacKinnon says:

Much has been made of a supposed distinction between sex and gender. Sex is thought to be the more biological, gender the more social; the relation of each to sexuality varies. I see sexuality as fundamental to gender and as fundamentally social. Biology becomes the social meaning of biology within the system of sex inequality much as race becomes ethnicity within a system of racial inequality. Both are social and political in a system that does not rest indepen¬dently on biological differences in any respect. In this light, the sex/gender distinction looks like a nature/culture distinction in the sense criticized by Sherry Ortner in "Is Female to Male as Nature Is to Culture?" Feminist Studies 8 (Fall 1982). I use sex and gender relatively interchangeably.


No Rich, that’s not nice, that’s radical feminism. In short, what you’ve attributed to trans is exactly what radical feminists say. I’ll see if I can’t have MacKinnon write you a note a apology because obviously you know so much more about feminism than she does.

Feminism is sooooo inconvenient. Why read it, when you can just make it up as you go along.

WomansSpace



What's being preached over at Heart's space is not...

2007-02-13T01:57:00.000-06:00

What's being preached over at Heart's space is not radical feminism. I've started a new blog to address where these gender essentialists are actually in bed with patriarchy.

It's probably against some kind of blog ettiquetee but oddly enough my blog URL is

www.womansspace.wordpress.com

Actual radical feminist discussion as opposed to the patriarchal pablum can be discussed. And by the way, one blog entry clearly contrasts what Heart said and what radical feminists. The largest appropriation going on is the label radical feminist.

Hello to you Bint I thought you exhibited the best a second wave tradition on Heart's board and were eloquent. ***Sigh*** I also ached as it seemed you were run over by a truck. And hi Blue. It's inconceivable that you would receive any less than their total support. How truly sad and it's shocking to see the women they are letting down.

WomansSpace



Hi! Thanks for leaving a comment at my blog, and ...

2007-02-10T20:18:00.000-06:00

Hi! Thanks for leaving a comment at my blog, and offering your prayers for my friend's daughter. I'm so glad your fight with cancer has been successful!

So neat that you are from southern LA...my mom's from there.



Hey Tulip...I found you becasue you found me...via...

2007-02-09T12:49:00.000-06:00

Hey Tulip...

I found you becasue you found me...via Shakes I believe...Great page you have here.

This is an excellent post on a highly complicated issue that is foriegn to so many people. My best friend is a transfemale...Leah. She is a woman...Even when she wasn't biologically. It is amazing to me the ways that this country, and most organizations have rigid standards of membership...mostly created out of fear of repercussions (read loss of money).

If we are the land of the free and the home of the brave, why doesn't a radical feminist group stand up and be radical? Why not stand up and be brave? Instead, they cast a finger, a judgemental eye, and cower in a corner so that the people giving money will keep giving money.

Sad.

And most unfortunately, the way of the world in modern America. Fear rules this nation, and this is just one more example of it.

Keep up the good work here. I will be most proudly adding you to my blogroll!

Good weekend to you!

g



I guess feminism is only about individuals when th...

2007-02-08T19:03:00.000-06:00


I guess feminism is only about individuals when the individual in question is her.


Sums it up.

I'm sure i've said this elsewhere by now, but:

at one point she wrote something that started with, something close to,

"Right now, my experience is the experience of that of most women on this planet"

and before i even got to what the fuck her saga was THIS time (having a whole shitload of kids, apparently), my immediate first thought was:

"Which planet would that be, again?"

Uranus, maybe.



I got them bint!!! I went through and found all of...

2007-02-07T13:01:00.001-06:00

I got them bint!!! I went through and found all of them--I'm SO sorry about that!!! They all got cast aside by the spam catcher!!!! (and I'm getting so much spam these days it's hard for me to keep up with it all--I'm getting about three hundred spam a day!!!)



I got them bint!!! I went through and found all of...

2007-02-07T13:01:00.000-06:00

I got them bint!!! I went through and found all of them--I'm SO sorry about that!!! They all got cast aside by the spam catcher!!!! (and I'm getting so much spam these days it's hard for me to keep up with it all--I'm getting about three hundred spam a day!!!)



that Rich character makes me so angry I can barely...

2007-02-07T10:17:00.000-06:00

that Rich character makes me so angry I can barely see straight. well many of them do, but the height of irony...

well no, blame the woman who sits there on her oh-so-radical-wimmin ass and enables him in his abuse whilst shutting down other voices.

wouldn't piss on the lot of 'em if they were on fire.



There was ugliness about disability in the Ashley ...

2007-02-07T00:00:00.000-06:00

There was ugliness about disability in the Ashley thread at Heart's too, despite so much concern for the female caregivers of disabled childen and all. Well, maybe the ugliness was just toward me because I dared to say that disability sometimes trumps or is inseparable from my femaleness. Whatever. I had been holding out hope some discussions over there might be for the good, but there's just so much hate using radical feminism as a focus against everything else that it makes my blood boil.

I left the Ashley thread in disgust myself, and don't plan to return for any reason. If you aren't one of the gang there, you won't be given equal time or consideration. You won't get respect. But I'm glad you said what you did there, Bint.



Can someone please tell BrownFemiPower that my com...

2007-02-06T21:04:00.000-06:00

Can someone please tell BrownFemiPower that my comments are not showing up on her page? I'm not sure if they are going to moderation or if there is just something wrong on my end. :o)

I'd sure appreciate it!



I think it's completely necessary to challenge the...

2007-02-06T02:51:00.000-06:00

I think it's completely necessary to challenge these attitudes but not at the expense of our hearts and minds. I often feel bad the other way, that I don't fight the big fights. I only went over there to support you but I really feel unable to engage in these arguments. My act of disgust was to de-link and I am in the process of de-linking from anyone who links there. I know people have argued that they have links to people they don't agree with but links are what helps build blogs and in turn attract more readers. But blogs like heart's are harming our communities and I'm not going to put up with that.

and yeah Bint, come over on Thursday for a chat ! I've missed you!



as for whether transpeople would be (inherently) -...

2007-02-05T20:20:00.000-06:00

as for whether transpeople would be (inherently) -better- understanding of oppression: no more or less than any other oppressed persons, esp. wrt other oppressed peoples.

but. as BA was noting: they -do- take (for now?) trangendered -clients.-

so, like, wouldn't it behoove them to have a TG -counselor- on hand, if they're gonna do that?

or is this now leading to, okay, they don't have to take TG -clients- now, either?

either way it bites.



it might still get overturned, right? i thought t...

2007-02-05T20:18:00.000-06:00

it might still get overturned, right? i thought this was a lower-court decision, not final, no?

and: people really should be hammering that "gender identity is not a protected category." ffs. well hello there then. so: being a BIOLOGICAL WOMAN is -protected-. having a GENDER IDENTITY incongruent with what you're supposed to is NOT.

and, it's a bunch of feminists that are cheering this.

but, women have no! repeat! no! power! over transgendered people!

it's disgusting.

and y'know i keep saying this:

you keep saying: NO POWER. we have NO POWER.

righto. and, as such, you were planning to enact this great global Revolution--how? just, what, hold your breath until the Patriarchy falls down? natter at other women about how "conventional" they look and fuck until the Patriarchy crumbles?

and the explanation for why this--seemingly inexplicably!--hasn't really y'know -worked- toward -that- goal:

it's all the fault (she said it -again!-) of queer/transgender. and sex-positive feminists, and every single man ever, and pretty much anyone and everyone but her/their own sweet self/selves.

covenient, that.



Bint I always worry about your feelings your smart...

2007-02-05T17:42:00.000-06:00

Bint I always worry about your feelings your smarts are more than fine but id o feel like running in for you mental and physical well being cause battling the stupid in no way can not be good for you

( PS I wann see Louisiana!!!!)

Natalie I'm not sure I agree wether trans women would be better understanding of oppression nor do i care if they are

VRR wants to be women born women only FINE go ahead . I will be sending my money to the center down the street.

BUt the way they chose to battle it . OH MY GOD! For a we trying to break down barriers organization to say that being accosted for how you express gender affiliations


ISN"T A THING TO BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST!!!!!!!!


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

oh god thats teh motehr of all bad precedent that makes teh stomach ache its so bad



That is so incredibly disgusting that I don't even...

2007-02-05T14:58:00.000-06:00

That is so incredibly disgusting that I don't even know where to begin. I would think a transwoman would have an even deeper understanding of discrimination than the majority of women out there. Then to get it from a group of women's rights activits is unheard of. I hope she wins her suit.



Also, thank you for this post and thread. I've be...

2007-02-05T11:44:00.000-06:00

Also, thank you for this post and thread. I've been out of it lately, but I appreciate all the wonderful opportunities for lurking you've all given me. There's been a lot of talk of trimming blogrolls lately, but I've picked up a few new hangouts.



wrt disabilities, tangentially related perhaps, sh...

2007-02-05T11:43:00.000-06:00

wrt disabilities, tangentially related perhaps, she's also been at it with another woman, wrt eating disorders.

That...figures.

I've been doing a lot of reading on ED lately--most of the stuff I've found puts binge-eating on the same level as anorexia; you're coping with the same problems via the same mechanism, only in a slightly different direction. The woman who eats obsessively isn't relating to her body all that differently than the woman who obsessively refuses to eat. And binge-eating isn't actually all that uncommon. That's just one reason why it's so foolish--and so very very dangerous to the afflicted people--to read anorexia as nothing but an overexpressed desire to be thin like the pretty girls. Like the woman's saying, the sufferer relates to her body in some ways that just are not straightforward.



oh so yeah anyway, this was her battle cry, in tha...

2007-02-05T08:55:00.000-06:00

oh so yeah anyway, this was her battle cry, in that Robin Morgan (hurl) thread:

The people we are fighting? Some of them are people whose pinheaded, self-serving, academented “analysis” it is that women “choose” to participate in beauty contests to get an education, or they “choose” to be prostituted to get an education, or they “choose” to participate in relationships which celebrate submission and dominance, and many of them are the same people who say our commitment to end sexism is “transphobic,” many of these people are the same people whose ideas are responsible for the fact that *things aren’t as different now for women as they were 20 years ago*. And *that* is the reasons for these discussions.

In point of fact, right now, to be dedicated to an end to sexism and to gender, full stop, is to be relentlessly excoriated by people who call that “transphobic” and a whole lot of other nasty things and a lot of those people are MEN who do not care one whit if anything ever changes for women, they want the clock turned back hundreds of years to the time when they owned us outright.

Really, I won’t have that kind of thing on this blog, the way when it begins to become evident that radical feminism has been lied about, maligned, misunderstood, when the lights go on and people start to bail because they realize they don’t have any good response to what has been offered, others come in wanting to talk about radical feminism being all about “theory” and no action, when *in fact* radical feminists are responsible for *revolution for women in our time* and if misogynists of all and every stripe would get the fuck out of the way with their misogynist ideas and behaviors and projects which they think are oh-so-”progressive,” and “transgressive,” even though they take us back to pre-feminism days, we might be able to actually *finish* the revolution we fucking began.

Sorry for my intensity but not really. This is TRUE.

Heart




shorter Heart: How dare you reject me/us after all that I/we have done for you! ("Us" means whatever I decide it means). We are radical feminists! We are Class Woman! the Class Woman, it is I! we invented feminism! we invented goddess-worship! we invented the Internets! we invented the cat! shame on you, you ungrateful little...poor dears! shame! shaaaaaaaame



oh and of course: if being married to (abusive, a...

2007-02-05T08:52:00.000-06:00

oh and of course: if being married to (abusive, as she never fails to remind people) black men and having mixed-race kids gives her some special insights into racism, then wouldn't you think every straight man who's been partnered with a woman--a FEMINIST woman, especially, okay, let's grant; and/or had y'know a mother, or daughters, strong feminist type ones, let's grant, that he'd have special insight into...sexism?

o wait, i forgot, all together now,

THAT'S DIFFERENT



wrt disabilities, tangentially related perhaps, sh...

2007-02-05T08:41:00.000-06:00

wrt disabilities, tangentially related perhaps, she's also been at it with another woman, wrt eating disorders.

it's just really terrific how she, Heart, like -knows what's best for everybody.- i mean, seriously, what would we all do without her?



Oh yeah, that "race traitor" business that she cla...

2007-02-05T08:35:00.000-06:00

Oh yeah, that "race traitor" business that she claims is just ridiculous. Marrying a person of color and having kids with them does not magically erase one's ability to engage in discrimination against others.

did you see this thread?

AD had/has no love lost for me, and i still disagree with her on a number of things, but i still wanted to stand of and cheer her for that.

and yeah, if you read that thread you notice what isn't -quite- said but she

might as well:

"Sexism trumps racism."

and womens uber alles.

also,

"yes, white men oppress MOC; I just don't care, mostly."

and where her shit -really- falls down is:

okay, let's say it's true, black men and white men sometimes "bond" via sexism.

but what she -doesn't- acknowledge is that it could just as well follow (and often does) that white men and white women bond via racism.

That does not compute, in Heartland.

That's why she keeps running into that particular shit.

Well, that and she's a hateful dogmatic asshole, of course.


anyway, just a note: Heart isn't the goddam mainstream, and it sucks moldy rocks that her ilk has wielded enough influence to enable a ghastly decision like this.

but, they're about as "mainstream" as Pat Robertson is mainstream Christian, i think. and the parallel works in a number of ways.

"get the fuck out of our way," she says.

Fine. Gauntlet. -Make- me, betch. It's on. Fucker.



Owww. my head hurts. I'm taking off in another d...

2007-02-05T08:32:00.000-06:00

Owww. my head hurts. I'm taking off in another direction, as the oddly selective Laundry list of oppressions reminded me of a half-piece I had on foot binding in the western imagination.

BA- I think blogging for bail money is the new hotness.