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Preview: Comments on SerandEz & Friends: The Chareidi World's Surprising Education

Comments on SerandEz and Friends: The Chareidi World's Surprising Education





Updated: 2013-06-25T09:05:38.343-04:00

 



Your cousins are the exception.They are not follow...

2007-05-16T11:29:00.000-04:00

Your cousins are the exception.They are not following the true Chareidi psak.No higher education for women without a kosher stamp of approval.



Your cousins have succeeded against the odds. Unf...

2007-05-14T15:33:00.000-04:00

Your cousins have succeeded against the odds. Unfortunately, with major Israeli Chareidi rabbonim coming out against higher education even for women, those who follow these rabbonim will be limited to low-level, low-paying jobs (hence why there are so many secretaries and gannanot). While there are those who are trying to find solutions that are acceptable within the framework of chareidi society, and they should be commended for their actions, overall I'm not sure that the educational situation for chareidim is getting any better (especially for the boys, who are banned from learning ANY secular studies over elementary school age, except for a few small schools which are in "cherem" by the rest of mainstream chareidi society).



Erachet - That's true as well. (First 2 paras.)And...

2007-05-14T13:05:00.000-04:00

Erachet - That's true as well. (First 2 paras.)

And your point is on the money - there's a way to do it, but that way requires at least some balancing (as evidenced by my cousins). Having everyone go into the same hole causes a downward spiral.

ToddV - Thanks.

SL - :)

As for the rest, I liked that post. The question is how rare that is and how people in his community perceive him... and how it would be perceived if people did that from the get-go and not at 50 years old.

Trilcat - That's part of the point. The smart will generally succeed regardless (though not always) and the others are being messed over by poor education. But what's interesting here is that this seemingly isn't even the hashkafa of people like my cousins, who are 'big' mainstream Charedim.



Ezzie, it sounds like your cousins are very intell...

2007-05-14T11:31:00.000-04:00

Ezzie, it sounds like your cousins are very intelligent. The very bright generally succeed no matter what the situation. My husband is fairly poorly educated (imo), but he's very smart. He is basically self-taught and works as a system engineer in a high-tech company. (Though he's been told that he won't be promoted without a degree. I'm hoping that he'll be able to get around it by getting some professional certifications - or that he won't get a title promotion, but his salary will increase as if he has...)

Someone with his education and a little less strong a kopf would be qualified to be a telemarketer, a taxi driver, a data entry clerk...

Even the weakest kids who graduated my high school were able to complete a BA and learn a more lucrative trade. Why? Because of a strong secular education.

Boys coming out of the charedi school system in Israel often can't solve a basic algebraic equation, much less understand the concept of an algorithm. The girls in the Beis Yaakov system, at least, are getting a higher level of education.

However, I know a family whose first daughter went to an Ulpana in Israel, and the other girls went to Beis Yaakov... The first is a dentist. The others don't have a real career path. I'm fairly certain the difference is hashkafa and education, not actual intelligence.



Ezzie-I recently put up a link to an article about...

2007-05-13T23:59:00.000-04:00

Ezzie-I recently put up a link to an article about a 50 year old man who left the kollel world for the working world as an aqua therapist. It is a positive article and makes a number of important points. Take a look. The article brings out a lot of good points. Hat tip to Greg of Presence. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.haredi29apr29,1,6772342.story?ctrack=2&cset=true

There is so much to say, but I'll just link you to this article. (You can check out my post too).

And congrads to your cousin-in-law. Finding fraud is definitely an accomplishment, although I still consider my lucky break to be a right time, right place sort of deal. :)



As a gentile I am utterly incompetent to discuss t...

2007-05-13T21:52:00.000-04:00

As a gentile I am utterly incompetent to discuss these issues. But I did want to post and say that you, Ezzie, show great spiritual maturity and the virtue of charity. You truly try to understand both sides and give the benefit of the doubt to the good faith of others. You may be young, but you are very wise.

ToddV



I guess it's also really difficult to understand t...

2007-05-13T13:27:00.000-04:00

I guess it's also really difficult to understand the Chareidi way of life unless you actually live it. I was just discussing this with my mom, because she has a lot of Chareidi and Yeshivish cousins. She said that she's heard of so many girls who, when they are 16 and 17 and 18 years old, dream of becoming a kollel wife and they want their future husbands to sit and learn for ten, twelve, fifteen years. The thing is, once they're married and on to their third or fourth kid, they suddenly realize what they got themselves into and some become sort of miserable.

On the other hand, some women absolutely love it and, as my mom explained, the husbands who spend their time learning usually are home in the morning to help the kids get ready for school or daycare or wherever they have to go before he leaves for the beit midrash (or beis medrish, heh) and he's home by dinnertime and helps with that and with getting the kids ready for bed, etc. And then, at night, when everything's calm and quiet, he goes back to learning. So it isn't always that the woman has both the job and the kids to be on top of alone.

So I guess, what my point is, there're always two ways of looking at things and there are always people who thrive in a certain lifestyle and people who can't get by, and I suppose ideally, those who can thrive in a Chareidi lifestyle should live one but those who can't should be able to find other ways to both be ultra-religious AND be comfortable, or even successful, in their lifestyle. I don't know. It's hard to find a balance, I guess. Especially if someone just doesn't want to enter the secular world out there and get caught up in it.



...which is kind of my point. If they are average ...

2007-05-13T13:18:00.000-04:00

...which is kind of my point. If they are average learners, they should be learning how to do other things (even as they're in yeshiva). And I don't understand why so many wives are only finding certain types of jobs.



So glad that your cousin and his kidas are making ...

2007-05-13T13:14:00.000-04:00

So glad that your cousin and his kidas are making it and it's wonderful to her success stories, but all the chareidim that I know in Israel - the husbands are average learners who have to stay in yeshiva to avoid serving in the army. They get some sort of miniscule stipend from the kollel and the wives are secretaries or pre-school assistants.