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Preview: Comments on Orthonomics: Building a House of Cards alternatively, Tuition i...

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Updated: 2017-12-04T22:28:14.843-05:00

 



Coming in a bit late, but worth mentioning that St...

2009-01-27T04:39:00.000-05:00

Coming in a bit late, but worth mentioning that St. Louis has two girls high schools and a MO boys high school and a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva. OOT ain't what it used to be.



I dunno, I do not see her numbers WAY off the mark...

2008-05-21T17:12:00.000-04:00

I dunno, I do not see her numbers WAY off the mark. I live in Teaneck, not the Five Towns. Tuition for Yeshiva HS here is 25k per year per child and the multi child discount is not terrific. Our school and property taxes are 10k per year. Our mortage is $2150 a month ($25,800 yr). We have five girls -- and while not now, at one time we had FOUR of them in HS at the same time! That is 100k per yr at full tuition, slightly less with the discount (and even more with scholarship requested). We also go upstate in the summer (Shabbat only) and that costs us $4000 rental on the very rustic rinky dinky kuchelaine we have -- but guess what? We gave it up this year -- gasoline prices are just too high to do that trip every week!! We now only have ONE kid in HS, one in Israel for the almost mandatory Shana B'Aretz (it really IS a good thing), one at an Ivy League University where the tuition was so high we have added yet another loan to our already overloaded indebtedness (and that is with a scholarship!). The other two are married and living in Israel but of course, we help them out financially (according to our means) as they are not yet at the point of being 100% self supporting. (That's ok, our parents helped us too). OUR house has NOT doubled in price, the value now is only about 1/3 more than we paid for it. We purchased it 8 years ago. Of course, I also have not mentioned the groceries, meidcal expenses (I wear hearing aids, and needed new ones and they are NOT covered by ANY insurance thank you very much -- that was $5000 completely out of pocket. Not including replacements of tubing, earhooks, molds, batteries! And clothing, shul dues, building funds, tzedakah, commuting costs, utilities, internet, phones, cable, replacement of old furnace ($6000), the list goes on. Yeah...one DOES need to earn a heckuva lot of money to live in the frum communities of the TriState area...



Worthy of a post, or at least a comment:http://www...

2008-05-20T22:43:00.000-04:00

Worthy of a post, or at least a comment:

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/18520/Gedolim+Warn+of+Chinuch+Atzmai+Bankruptcy.html



Vegas is booming and the residential areas are att...

2008-05-20T18:55:00.000-04:00

Vegas is booming and the residential areas are attractive. Many Californians relocate there because there is no tax, but I don't really like the heat. I forgot St. Louis, but I don't know anyone from there. The others I mentioned I worth my spending a Shabbos and a visit to the local high schools. I know I am limiting myself, LOZ, but I'm big on raising my own kids and I don't think sending them away at 14 is healthy.



I'm thinking Milwaukee, Cleveland, Chicago, Atlant...

2008-05-20T18:51:00.000-04:00

I'm thinking Milwaukee, Cleveland, Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, San Diego, Virginia, Baltimore, Detroit, Memphis, possibly Seattle. I'm big on Atlanta, personally, and anything in the South. To me, Southerners are hands down the warmest out of towners I've met.



OOT also means reduced chances of having a school ...

2008-05-20T12:11:00.000-04:00

OOT also means reduced chances of having a school that meets your hashkafic, pedagogic,etc.needs

Heaven forefend!

special needs.

Fair point.




2008-05-20T12:10:00.000-04:00

This comment has been removed by the author.



No, no high school in Oregon. People who send thei...

2008-05-19T15:07:00.000-04:00

No, no high school in Oregon. People who send their kids away send them to Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, or Denver.



Don't forget Michigan (Detroit), Tennessee (Memphi...

2008-05-19T12:18:00.000-04:00

Don't forget Michigan (Detroit), Tennessee (Memphis), and Wisconsin (Milwaukee). Maybe Oregon (Portland) as well but I'm not sure. Texas is very affordable, and there are great, growing communities in Dallas and Houston.



Our rebbetzin, who attended the girls high school ...

2008-05-19T11:32:00.000-04:00

Our rebbetzin, who attended the girls high school in Atlanta, has nothing but the highest praise for the school there and if she has to send her own children out of town for school, she will be sending them there. I'm very happy with being "OOT." And I would not be happy living in NYC, or really anywhere in the NE. Just doesn't do it for me - not that it isn't good for other folks!



profk:OOT also means reduced chances of having a s...

2008-05-19T09:02:00.000-04:00

profk:

OOT also means reduced chances of having a school that meets your hashkafic, pedagogic, special, etc. needs.



PROFK:CA and NJ do have HSs, but do you think thes...

2008-05-19T08:55:00.000-04:00

PROFK:

CA and NJ do have HSs, but do you think these areas are really affordable? (yes, i know there is a range, but the areas with the jewish schools are no the cheap areas.) i assume IL is also not cheap.

as far as the other states, established does not mean good. for example, i don't know how it is today, but 15 years ago the high school my friend went to in philadelphia was crap. same for the HS in atlanta and my friend's ES in minneapolis

"as a community grows larger, with more children in it, the chances are that a high school will be established because of need"

that's a pretty big risk to take



Lion,Just off the top of my head without any resea...

2008-05-19T07:37:00.001-04:00

Lion,
Just off the top of my head without any research,by state, Florida, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Colorado, Washington, Nevada and California have established high schools, some have more than one, and I know there are others just not the specific details.

Should keep this in mind also: as a community grows larger, with more children in it, the chances are that a high school will be established because of need.



Lion,Just off the top of my head without any resea...

2008-05-19T07:37:00.000-04:00

Lion,
Just off the top of my head without any research,by state, Florida, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Colorado, Washington, Nevada and California have established high schools, some have more than one, and I know there are others just not the specific details.

Should keep this in mind also: as a community grows larger, with more children in it, the chances are that a high school will be established because of need.



as a new yorker, i agree with dr. hall's assessmen...

2008-05-19T00:23:00.000-04:00

as a new yorker, i agree with dr. hall's assessment. not too many surprises in her budget.

ANON MOM:

"That is why we would never consider a community without an established and well-run Jewish High School."

this seriously limits the possibilities. how many cities actually have established (i.e., stable) and well-run high schools?



You aren't going to believe me, but....I live in N...

2008-05-18T16:35:00.000-04:00

You aren't going to believe me, but....

I live in New York City. None of these expenses surprise me at all.

$24K tuition is actually on the low side; the MO HS in my neighborhood charges that for one child.

$4000/month for a mortgage? Well, you can't buy a house for that little in my neighborhood in the Bronx. And in Manhattan you can't buy an apartment for that. The only thing that saves us here in NYC are the low property taxes; for this writer they are probably on the order of $4,000/year.

The per person grocery costs aren't far from what I see my wife and I spend, and what other families spend. I was stunned when I moved to NYC from Connecticut and my grocery bills doubled. Comparison shopping doesn't save all that much here. (What DOES is not holding to every chumrah on the planet, but that is another issue....Almost nobody in my nbhd eats only CY dairy products. And we may all become vegetarian if Rubashkin can't recover from their recent raid. We have always had a dairy-only kitchen so it doesn't affect us.)

$32k on utilities is the only item that seems high. But gas and electric are also quite expensive here in NYC. And if you have an old, big, drafty house like some frum neighborhoods in the Bronx or Brooklyn....

$17k on insurance is probably low for that size family; the writer is probably saying "Modim..." that they have it at all.

The child care costs are low by NYC standards.

I should add that state and local income taxes are high in NYC, and that someone in that bracket probably pays Alternative Minimum Tax as well.



Sara, I don't mean to sound obnoxious. I just thi...

2008-05-18T15:31:00.000-04:00

Sara,
I don't mean to sound obnoxious. I just think the out of towners need to get more vocal and organized about publicizing this option. One "out of town fair" is not enough. My friends--of all stripes of Orthodoxy--are very happy out of town. They have challenges, but the payoffs seem to outweigh them. The most Yeshivish of my friends asked the right questions and prepared well for the challenges. Again, no Cholov Yisrael, community with nearby high school, one parent working in the school which cuts the cost of tuition. They could never have afforded a house in the NY area. And their kids are interacting with and learning about all kinds of Jews. They are teaching and learning from others. It's not for everyone, but it sure is worth a look-see.



Sara,I know Yeshivish people who live out of town ...

2008-05-18T15:26:00.000-04:00

Sara,
I know Yeshivish people who live out of town and do not keep Cholov Yisrael because of the cost and difficulty in getting it. They have Psak on that. It is worth asking. With regard to schools, many out of town schools are community day schools that offer good secular studies programs. They charge accordingly. I'm curious if you looked into tuitions before you left and considered a community with more choice like Baltimore. Kosher food is cheapest in NY neighborhoods like Flatbush and Boro Park where there is a lot of competition. Any time you get to a place with less competition, you are going to be paying more. That's why many of my out of town friends buy meat and chicken in bulk and store it in freezers. They strategize and make home made whenever possible. Also, if you are only buying in the local kosher market (if you have one) or only Heimish brands, then, of course, your food costs are higher. Again, my Yeshivish out of town friends do not buy most of their stuff in the local Kosher joint, buy on sale at the big Supermarkets like Safeway and do often not the brand name, but the store brands. There are ways to cut costs. The two-car need is present pretty much everywhere except NYC proper. That, too, would have been a given to anyone planning to move out of town. Jobs are a consideration, but many of us who consider the out of town option are in professions that do not rely on connections within the frum world. We research the field in the community of choice and then choose whether to leave. I really do think that moving out of NY is an extremely cost effective and Neshama-effective move. The only drawback--literally the only one--I hear about from my Out of Town friends is that some of them have to send their high schoolers away for school. That is why we would never consider a community without an established and well-run Jewish High School.



Sara,"OOT" is not monolithic. You raise some good ...

2008-05-18T14:52:00.000-04:00

Sara,
"OOT" is not monolithic.
You raise some good points that anyone, moving anywhere, needs to consider: insurance, cost of renting, housing available, public transportation, day school costs. Moving in and of itself may not be the answer.

Are you comparing current food prices to what you used to pay in NY, or the prices now?



Having just moved from Bklyn OOT- I think I can sp...

2008-05-18T14:43:00.000-04:00

Having just moved from Bklyn OOT- I think I can speak from both sides of the coin...
A house is NOT everything in life... Though everyone would love to own one... The only thing I find cheaper OOT is the price of a home....
1)Living in BKLYN we had 1 car- which was used very rarely. Hubby took the train to work- I walked. Here we need 2 cars- and everywhere is a drive. We are spending more in insurance [2 cars], gas prices, maintenance etc...
2)Hubby and I paid a little over $800 for health insurance for the both of us. Child covered under NY child health plus... Minimal charge- basically free. Our insurance bill now for family is $$1250 a month
3)We lived in a 2 bedroom apt. Rent was $1200. Now we live in a much bigger place- a rented house for the same price. But it is more expensive to heat/cool and we pay all utilites [water] lights for the outside etc....
4)Food, veggies, fruit and staples are enormously expensive here. I would say at least double the price!! Forget about kosher food. We keep cholov yisroel- so milk products are a fortune. And no, I do not feed my hubby after a long day of work pasta for dinner every night, nor do I serve meat every night or more than once a week. But I do cook healthy balanced nutritious meals.
5)Elementary school in our Bklyn neighborhood is about $8k per child. Here that price is for pre-school only. Elementary is $14k+
I could go on with the comparisions...
When I explain to my hubby that our living OOT is more expensive- the housing price comes up. Yes- housing is cheaper OOT. That's about it. Many pple in Bklyn buy a two family house, live in less space and make do...
I know this post is long- I just want to point out- that many of you just write 'time to move out of Brooklyn' etc....
Brooklyn has a lot of job opportunity [especially for s/o who is not Doctor, lawyer, accountant or even more- not a professional...] it is also cheaper on a daily level.
As a side note- while some of the letter writer's expenses seem high- most seems pretty reasonable to me....



Tamiri,I'm a teacher so I know how difficult it is...

2008-05-18T09:27:00.000-04:00

Tamiri,
I'm a teacher so I know how difficult it is really for kids middle or high school age to make friends. If you ask the kids themselves, they don't necessarily know what's ahead. Neither do the parents. So, for now, I remain where I am with a happy middle schooler and a watchful eye. It's not purgatory, after all. It's just NY. But reevaluating our lifestyle and how we can cut costs is priority 1 this summer.



to correct one apparent misconception, I think whe...

2008-05-18T02:53:00.000-04:00

to correct one apparent misconception, I think when she wrote "In most cases, this requires both parents to kick in financially." she meant herself and her husband, the parents of her children. that's why the next paragraph follows logically: "_Therefore_, we also need someone to watch our baby and need to hire help."
so that's one financial malady it's unfair to pin on this letter writer.



OY VEY! Our family of 6 lives just fine on $55K/ye...

2008-05-18T01:51:00.000-04:00

OY VEY! Our family of 6 lives just fine on $55K/year. I don't use coupons (there's never anything useful!), I cook from scratch, we do have health insurance through work but we still pay $500+ per month out of pocket, I stay home with my kids, we intend (BE"H) to do all of their schooling via full-time private tutoring (instead of day school), we save for retirement, we only eat out when we travel, we take *very* inexpensive but delightful vacations, we pay $600/month for groceries (meat only on shabbat + sometimes one other night), we paid 25% of our house in cash (and will be moving, b'ezrat hashem, next summer to a less expensive city where the equity in our current house will allow us to buy a comparable house in cash). I think it's embarrassing how wasteful we have become of Hashem's resources, and how many extraneous things are now considered "necessary." I am very grateful to Hashem that my husband and I are not raising my children with all of these bizarre expectations. Living our simple lifestyle, we are still living like kings and queens compared to 99% of the rest of the world.



the average household salary in Cleveland might be...

2008-05-17T22:04:00.000-04:00

the average household salary in Cleveland might be $32 k if you're including all the east cleveland non Jews, etc etc. But in the Jewish community, most people (who aren't kollel couples) are making much more than that. I don't see a huge salary discrepancy in most professions.

We moved to Cleveland from Los Angeles and my husband, a teacher, only took a $5000 pay cut. (my salary is commission based and fluctuates wildly, so I can't compare my income LA to Cleveland especially since I got pregnant, put on bedrest, and had infant twins here).


A lot of people assume "you can't make money in the midwest", but until they send their resumes to the midwest, how do they know?



anonymous, how old is "too old" to uproot?I brough...

2008-05-17T14:23:00.000-04:00

anonymous, how old is "too old" to uproot?
I brought over an 18 yo - straight into the army and a 13 yo whose school issues were solved by him getting a GED and going to University instead of 12th grade. If the kids are willing and flexible, it may be doable.