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Preview: Comments on SerandEz & Friends: Fuzzy Math

Comments on SerandEz and Friends: Fuzzy Math





Updated: 2013-06-25T09:05:38.343-04:00

 



"There are very many Charedi wives who work. Does ...

2008-05-23T13:55:00.000-04:00

"There are very many Charedi wives who work. Does anybody condemn single-income families when it isn't the Charedim?"

No offense intended, but among those of us of who are non-Orthodox (which excludes many of the fine Frum folks who post or comment on this blog), the perception is that, while there are certainly "perpetual students" in graduate school--the secular equivalent of kollel--most of the non-religious world waits until the graduate degree is in hand and the new job already begun before having children. Among many of us non-Orthodox, the condemnation of Chareidi single-income families arises from a perception that Chareidi parents are having children when they're barely capable of supporting even themselves.

"You want them to earn more - why do they have to follow Western ideas of standard of living?"

The problem, real (in some cases) and/or perceived (in others, perhaps) is not that Chareidim don't have Western living standards, but that their income is so low that they have to depend on charity--in private or goverment form--whereas, if both spouses worked--or if Chareidi women were free to pursue highter education and to work in higher-paying fields--that might not be the case. We got no financial help whatsoever in raising our child. Why should I have to help support the children of a person who is, or should be, perfectly capable of getting a job that will enable him/her/them to support his/her/their own children? Why is a man condemned, in certain communities, for wanting to support his own family by working for a living instead of studying full-time? Who died and left everyone else in charge of the Chareidim's children?



There are very many Charedi wives who work. Does a...

2008-05-22T07:31:00.000-04:00

There are very many Charedi wives who work. Does anybody condemn single-income families when it isn't the Charedim?

You want them to earn more - why do they have to follow Western ideas of standard of living?



First of all it does not "got" to come from anywhe...

2008-05-20T15:09:00.000-04:00

First of all it does not "got" to come from anywhere. I'm pretty sure that there is at least one side that thinks things are fine just the way they are.

That's the point of the post. Blindness to reality is only heading toward economic disaster.

Change works from the ground up, as the people at the top wish to stay there.

Granted, but the change itself will have to come from the top because of the structure of the community. That means either the people on the ground need to somehow change the people at the top, or show them that they need to say something to avoid losing their spots.

...not saying it's easy.

Other option would be a groundswell of people who take a gamble and try to effect change from the bottom, but that would most likely simply remove them from the community.

As a note, there are those at the top who are changing - the Gerrer Rebbe last year called on people to go work.



how to change the mindset which is so ingrained......

2008-05-20T13:58:00.000-04:00

how to change the mindset which is so ingrained... and that's got to start from the top.

First of all it does not "got" to come from anywhere. I'm pretty sure that there is at least one side that thinks things are fine just the way they are.

Second..."start from the top"??!!!

Bzzzzzzz, guess again. Change works from the ground up, as the people at the top wish to stay there.



1. Even if they wanted to get a job or go to colle...

2008-05-20T13:55:00.000-04:00

1. Even if they wanted to get a job or go to college, they have no knowledge or skills to help them.
2. The government gives them money because the political system allows small parties to have an inordinate power over the budget. It has nothing to do with how most of Israel feels about haredim, kollel and the army.
3. The govt. similarly allows the haredim to get away without teaching their sons basic skills, which perpetuates the problem.



So the question becomes now how to change the mind...

2008-05-20T13:34:00.000-04:00

So the question becomes now how to change the mindset which is so ingrained... and that's got to start from the top.

Social reformation? I don't go there.



Bad4 - Agreed on the history. So the question beco...

2008-05-20T12:21:00.000-04:00

Bad4 - Agreed on the history. So the question becomes now how to change the mindset which is so ingrained... and that's got to start from the top.



"biting the hand that feeds you." --Bingo!

2008-05-20T12:13:00.000-04:00

"biting the hand that feeds you."

--Bingo!



In English we would call the chareidi versus the I...

2008-05-20T12:11:00.000-04:00

In English we would call the chareidi versus the Israeli government position as "biting the hand that feeds you." You can't have it both ways, although they try. You can't condemn someone on one hand while insisting they support you on the other.

And if there is a feeling of superiority to the rest of us based on their learning as opposed to working then how did they miss those two parts that say "Kol Yisroel areivim zeh lo zeh" and "V'ohavtah l'reiachoh kemochah"? Must be a lot of self-hatred among them?



I wish I could use less qualifiers, but I don't kn...

2008-05-20T12:10:00.000-04:00

I wish I could use less qualifiers, but I don't know any of this stuff as fact. However, I've heard it from people who were around 30-40 years ago and claim to remember how it was. They don't use qualifiers.



About 40 years ago, there probably were chareidim ...

2008-05-20T12:08:00.000-04:00

About 40 years ago, there probably were chareidim who wouldn't have minded getting a job. Today, no. Or mostly no. (Nachal Chareidi is a sort of case in point.) But the today situation is at least partially an outgrowth of the yesterday situation. From everyone is learning from necessity, it becomes everyone is learning, becomes how can you not be doing what everyone is doing, becomes you must be learning.



Well it's certainly not the college. I'd presume i...

2008-05-20T11:52:00.000-04:00

Well it's certainly not the college. I'd presume it's the learning over the job, though, from what I've always heard from Rabbonim and yeshiva guys.



Okay, here comes the cynic...chareidim don't want ...

2008-05-20T11:51:00.000-04:00

Okay, here comes the cynic...

chareidim don't want to go to the army,

Correct

The 1st choice there is the learning, not the job or college.

Are we sure that this is 100% correct? Or is it that the first choice is not the job or college and learning is what's left?



If your argument is that charedi men would choose ...

2008-05-20T11:27:00.000-04:00

If your argument is that charedi men would choose a job or college above learning, but they can't because of the army exemption, I'd have to say that I don't buy it. The 1st choice there is the learning, not the job or college.



Part of the problem in Israel is that chareidim do...

2008-05-20T11:26:00.000-04:00

Part of the problem in Israel is that chareidim don't want to go to the army, but they can't get a job or go to college - the only other alternative is learning. So chareidi men are basically cut off from most income opportunities, and it's now become a way of life.