Subscribe: Comments on: IRAQ: THE WITHDRAWAL CLOCK IS OFFICIALLY TICKING
http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/10/13/iraq-the-withdrawal-clock-is-officially-ticking/feed/
Added By: Feedage Forager Feedage Grade B rated
Language: English
Tags:
american  anti american  bush  country  drongo  iraq  islamic nutcases  islamic  life  military  people  point  success  time  war  world 
Rate this Feed
Rate this feedRate this feedRate this feedRate this feedRate this feed
Rate this feed 1 starRate this feed 2 starRate this feed 3 starRate this feed 4 starRate this feed 5 star

Comments (0)

Feed Details and Statistics Feed Statistics
Preview: Comments on: IRAQ: THE WITHDRAWAL CLOCK IS OFFICIALLY TICKING

Comments on: IRAQ: THE WITHDRAWAL CLOCK IS OFFICIALLY TICKING



Politics served up with a smile... And a stilletto.



Published: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 04:48:00 +0000

 



By: Dale in Atlanta

Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:49:26 +0000

Drongo: "See, that’s where I’ve ended up and I can’t think of anything so I am defaulting to looking after our own. I advocate withdrawl, but only out of the hopelessness of the situation. Not popular I imagine, but everything so far has made things worse." I'm so frustrated with this Administration; I'm not naturally a Democrat, though I was raised in a very liberal time; my families orientation growing up, was probably more "Republican"; BUT, it was also quite evident, that you Voted on WHO the PERSON was; and what they would do, and you didn't Vote PARTY! So, it was not at all a problem, that my parents voted for Kennedy, then Nixon! It was OBVIOUS, that Carter was to be avoided, same with Dukkakis, same with Mondale, same with Gore, same with Kerry! Clinton was a more complex issue; Bush Sr. had major problems; and he finally got voted against! Same with Dole! Frankly, I didn't vote for this President in 2000; couldn't do it, based upon what I disliked about his father in 1992! But, I couldn't vote for Gore either; so I sat that one out! Probably the reason why the election was so close! In 2004, I HAD to vote, it was too important for the country; and there was really only ONE Choice, Bush, and.......well, as I said, there was only one choice, I don't even acknowledge who the other individual was.... However, just to establish MY track record on this: I've been consistent my whole life on this: not only vote for the BEST person; but also, ALWAYS, support EVERY President when they use the Military! That's immutable to me! Thus, even though, it was OBVIOUS that Clinton did at least Two "tail wagging the dog" scenarios to escape the heat of the Lewinsky mess, I supported him FULLY; same with Kosovo; same with whatever. So, I supported Bush too! And Bush Sr, and Reagan, and Carter, and Nixon all too, when they deemed it necessary to use military action; usually I was critical that various ones, didn't use it ENOUGH (Carter, Clinton). Anyway, I just say all this, so you know I'm not an apologist for this President or Administration. In fact, my opinion of Bush, prior to 9/11, is that he would server out a fairly undistinguished first term, and then Fail to be re-elected to a second term, just like his father. That all changed after 9/11; and it certainly made his election a certainty, after Kerry was nominated! The Democrats are suicideal that way! It's amazing... Anyway, my point to all of this; you advocate Withdrawal; I cannot! I can see the "big picture"; and it's important. I know Iraq is a "mess"; this Administration has done many things wrong; including, FAILING to adequately "sell" this war to the public, for the CORRECT reasons; failing to make it part of the Larger GWOT, which it IS, and WAS, failing to "sell" to the public, the larger threat, and why Iraq and Afghanistan ARE important, etc. They only attempt to "sell" it, when it gets so back, it seems ready to collapse, they come out for a week or two, and then, go back to letting the Leftist MSM "frame" the debate! No wonder public support/perception of it is so low. Bottomline for ME: is that this is an Epic event, it is a "big idea"; it is a Cause, that we NEED to win; otherwise, the end result, ten, twenty years from now, IS a World War/Clash of Civilizations/Muslims against Christians, to the death! I think it is THAT important! Therefore, I cannot adocate withdraw, no matter how messy it is, and no matter what cost appears to be, right now. Those are my Personal beliefs, don't ask for "Proof", on some of them, it's gut instinct, and "proof" is ephermeral! Someone else, can make the Exact OPPOSITE arguments, I know, on everything! Anyways, just my thoughts, and reasons...



By: Tim

Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:12:34 +0000

Rick, c'mon, this is a pretty lousy post. We're losing in Iraq because our national will to win isn't strong enough? Are you kidding me? We don't have enough troops there to provide security, quell the violence and stabilize the situation. To blame our inability to accomplish the above on a lackluster cheering section back home is just dumb. Please, take off the partisan blinders for five seconds, especially if you're going to talk about the war. If you want to go through the litany of talking points regarding taxes, abortion or gay marriage, by all means, have at it. But this is a WAR, our men and women in Iraq deserve more (from both sides) then lazy, asinine, dishonest, partisan arguments. With that being said, I enjoy your site, even when it sends my blood pressure through the roof! I'll step off my soapbox now.



By: Drongo

Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:30:14 +0000

"I did not Advocate killing EVERY Muslim in the world!" Didn't think that you did, though I've become very concerned by the number of people that I have read advocating such mass slaughter, or even nuking places like Iran pre-emptively and massively. Frankly, some people have forgotten some of the other lessons of WWII and it scares me. "My only point among the facts and figures, was that the Leftists in This country, point to the “numbers” without historical contexts, as an indication of Failure, and you cannot do that!" The point being made in these claims is usually a comment on the stated reason for the invasion, and the later "Liberation and democracy" goals. The point is to say "If 600,000 extra people have died then we have failed to liberate them". It is an attempt to measure success. "You know, post -WWII, we had a pretty good little “insurgency” going in Germany" Yes, I did know that as it happens (I am a big history fan...) but it was of a very different stripe. There you were definitely facing people without a hope of success, and with little popular support by that stage. As you say, Iraq is a very different kettle of fish. "For me, after the ground campaign phase of the war was over, and we took Baghdad, I think we had about a month, “goodwill”, to make take some concrete steps to head off the insurgency, and that we completely FREAKING flubbed it, at every turn." I was reading Tim Collins book on his time in Iraq a couple of weeks ago and I was struck by how difficult the job he had was. Success was just taken as a given by the politicians, but it was obviously far more difficult than imagined. "We should’ve issued the Iraqi Army orders to report to their Barracks, the next day, for new uniforms, and full pay; very slowly and surreptiously carried out a “de-Bathistfication” plan of the highest levels, out of sight, used the rest to keep the lid on the country; put out the PR campaign about how they were the new Iraq Army, and their job was to protect the country from the Iranians and to keep Al Qaeda out; and did what we basically did in Germany, Japan, and Afghanistan!" I agree with every word, with one change. I'd have made a point, the next day of praising their courage, both in fighting and in surrendering in the face of Saddam's reprisals, their dedication to the free people's of Iraq and their part in the formation of a new Iraq. Then I'd have given them a payrise. "I do know this though; giving up and withdrawing, would be the WORST thing; so we have to find something “in-between”; what exactly, I’m still working that out…" See, that's where I've ended up and I can't think of anything so I am defaulting to looking after our own. I advocate withdrawl, but only out of the hopelessness of the situation. Not popular I imagine, but everything so far has made things worse.



By: Dale in Atlanta

Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:25:07 +0000

Drongo: "you might not be so happy when I tell you that I do differentiate between Muslims and Islamic nutcases" Drongo, no, I'm not upset; if you could pull anything useful out of my previous rant, I did not Advocate killing EVERY Muslim in the world! Never would do that, and didn't mean to imply that! I've lived over there a great portion of my life, I have many Muslim friends, that I communicate with on a weekly basis, from as long as 30 years ago! My only point among the facts and figures, was that the Leftists in This country, point to the "numbers" without historical contexts, as an indication of Failure, and you cannot do that! And, having been part of the military myself, I've NEVER seen anyone, deliberately "target" anyone, just to kill Muslims; though, I know, I know, we have cases of individuals, who have gone crazy, and done BAD things, no doubt, but it is NOT US policy; never has been. I'm a firm believer like you, though, in killing as many "Islamic Nutcaes" as we can hunt down and kill, because that is the ONLY thing that THEY understand! For the first time in the History of Warfare, the goals of the two sides are the same: They WANT to Die, to go to Paradise, and we WANT to Kill them; so our goals are NOT mutually exclusive, like when you are fighting a "normal" enemy; whose primary goal is to remain alive, and kill you instead! You know, post -WWII, we had a pretty good little "insurgency" going in Germany, for a year or more, where not only American/Allied military personnel were attacked and killed by Waffen SS "insurgents", but they also attacked civilians, and even American dependents who had come over! Now, I'm NOT in anyway equating the seriousness of that, with what's happening in Iraq today, because Iraq has FAR exceeded that, but I will just point it out, because people do, again, lose sight of the historical context, and thing that Japan and Germany both stopped fighting on a certain day, and from that day forward, everything came up roses, and that is FAR from the case! For me, after the ground campaign phase of the war was over, and we took Baghdad, I think we had about a month, "goodwill", to make take some concrete steps to head off the insurgency, and that we completely FREAKING flubbed it, at every turn. Paul Bremer was the biggest cause; the abolition of the Iraqi Army, overnight, launched the insurgency the next day! The stupidest move I've ever seen, and I couldnt' believe it when it happened! He blames Rumsfield, I don't know what Rumsfield says; I blame Bremer himself. Hell, even MacArthur wasn't stupid enough to disband the Japanese Imperial Army after WWII! We should've issued the Iraqi Army orders to report to their Barracks, the next day, for new uniforms, and full pay; very slowly and surreptiously carried out a "de-Bathistfication" plan of the highest levels, out of sight, used the rest to keep the lid on the country; put out the PR campaign about how they were the new Iraq Army, and their job was to protect the country from the Iranians and to keep Al Qaeda out; and did what we basically did in Germany, Japan, and Afghanistan! Found an IMMEDIATE STRONG Iraqi "face" to lead the nation, and worry about elections later, etc. I mean the CPA screwed the pooch at every turn, turned the Iraqi Army into the Insurgents, which gave Al Qaeda/Zarqawi an excuse to come in, start attacking the Shi'ites, and we have what we have now! A complete cluster F#$%! Answers: I'd be a millionaire if I knew the EXACT answer! I do know this though; giving up and withdrawing, would be the WORST thing; so we have to find something "in-between"; what exactly, I'm still working that out...



By: Drongo

Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:10:35 +0000

"Drongo: You are a gracious man, in the face of an over done, and unprovoked assault!" That's OK, I've got a thick skin and I figured that you weren't really talking to me. “Less Islamic nutcases” as the indicator of success.” you might not be so happy when I tell you that I do differentiate between Muslims and Islamic nutcases. I broadly seperate them as people for whom Islam is a part of their life but not their driving force and people for whom Islam is their driving force. Thus one way to reduce Islamic nutcases is to turn them into plain and simple Muslims. Another way, obviously, is to kill them. My thesis is that killing them tends to influence more Muslims into being Islamic nutcases by driving them into the arms of the most obvious protective umberella available. That's why I said that killing a million Iraqis will not improve the strategic situation. It will just make a vast proportion of the rest turn more strongly to religion, leading to more nutcases. The problem is how to reduce the number of Islamic nutcases. Simply reducing the number of Muslims is unlikely to achieve that, in my opinion. I'm not asking the question to make a point. I'm asking the question because I honestly don't know what the answers even look like these days. At the start of the Iraq war I had a pretty accurate picture of how things were going to work out. I thought that the "Flowers and parades" plan was just far too optimistic, and I also thought that the people planning the occupation obviously didn't know and didn't want to know what they were getting into. So, sectarian strife, abuses on all sides, mass killings, all the fun of the fair. Now we have in front of us a falling apart state, with a civil war on the go and a heavy dose of radicalism on the side. The first thing that one needs to do when considering a strategy (as in any project) is "What are we trying to achieve". Only when that has been explored can one go onto "How can we achieve that", because otherwise you have no way to measure success or failure, and with no means to measure success or failure you cannot change tactics meaningfully. Killing people simply isn't working. Having elections isn't working. Building up Iraqi security forces isn't working. It seems that everything that we do makes more Islamic nutcases. So, "What are we trying to achieve?"



By: Dale in Atlanta

Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:59:10 +0000

“Less Islamic nutcases” as the indicator of success." Drongo: You are a gracious man, in the face of an over done, and unprovoked assault! I've took your post, as the opportunity to unload about 3 weeks of backed up bile from reading a combination of about 6 other blogs, where serious people are having serious discussions about the future of our civilization, and our country, and where a bunch of Leftist Trolls, take the oppportunity at every turn, to inject their complete and utter bullshit, and I had just had enough, and I lashed out at you! Your last comment, the one to start this post, is the most apropos! Cheers Dale



By: Drongo

Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:24:24 +0000

"First, you have NO commonsense, second, your intellecutal capability is severely atrophied, due to decades of inculcation by Leftists, anti-American Academia in America; third, because of your short-sightedness and Leftist proclivities, you avoid like the plauge, service in your country’s military services; you have no practical experience in the world, the military, the government; uusally your only major experience in life is having taken a weekend spring break trip to Cancun, or Aruba, where you spent the majority of the time drunk, high, and/or trying to get on some sex-act video so it could be uploaded to some $14.95/per month pay-porn site." Goodness me, you certainly can tell a lot about me from that little bit, can't you. Unfortunately you are wrong in almost every particular, apart from the military service part. Coming from a military family, I considered the Royal Navy as a career but decided that I wanted a more stable lifestyle in which to raise a family. "Instead, you know all about “Kwanza”, and the fact that we now have a “Fall Festival” and a “Winter Festival”, because Halloween and Christmas have been outlawed, and your learning about Ramada and Hare Krishna, because they’re Anti-American, and thus GOOD!" Sorry, I have no idea what "Kwanza" is, and celebrate Christmas and Halloween. I've never been to a fall festival in my life, nor do I even know what one is. "Poking people like you, RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES, until you either GET IT, or I damage your pea-sized logic holder!" OK. Sounds like fun. "What the Union did, to the population of the South, during the Civil War, and what the Allies did to the Germans and the Japanese, on many SINGLE DAYS, outweighed ANYTHING that has happened in Afghanistan, and Iraq, to all concerned: Miliary and Civilian, COMBINED, over the past FIVE YEARS!" Yeeees. That's knid of obvious, isn't it. But then you're not fighting a war to conquer, are you. You are fighting a war to liberate, aren't you? "Now, your Leftist sensibilities are screaming out at this point: MURDERER, you have no regard for human life, you want people to die, you’re excusing the murder of innocents, and you don’t care about your fellow military etc., etc.!" No, they aren't. Sorry to disappoint. My sensibilities are saying "What's your point?". "My wants/desires didn’t keep Al Qaeda from murdering 3000 of my fellow citizens, while they were at their desks, catching up on their emails, or drinking their coffee, or thinking about when they had to leave work to go home to their kid’s soccer game!" No, that was piss poor intelligence work, wasn't it. I am still not really getting your point. What does this have to do with the war in Iraq? "Hey Drongo, there are BAD people in the world, they don’t think like you and me; life is disposable to them; they could give a shit if you “like” them, and just want to get along, and that you’re culturally sensitive, and want to reach out to them!" Yes, I know. Do you think that the war in Iraq has increased or decreased to number of people who hate us enough to harm us? "Drongo, they don’t give a crap! So you can wallow in your self-hate, and self-guilt, and your reflexive Anti-Americanism; that’s fine, they’ll smile in your face, and slit your throat while you’re still wallowing in self-pity and hate for Bush!" Well, the chance of any of them trying to slit my throat are remarkably low, since I live in the home counties. Not a whole lot of Islamicly driven murders around here. And I tend to wallow in the confort of my life, not in any form of hatred. I must say, though it grieves me to say it, that you seem to have some serious issues with some of your fellow citizens. "So, we HAD better succeed in Iraq, it’s the “BIG IDEA”; we HAVE NO choice,[...]



By: BurtB

Tue, 17 Oct 2006 03:32:05 +0000

(2)Davebo Said: 3:32 pm "Damn that leftest defeatist Baker! " guess again, Davebo. If you read the piece, the important part is toward the bottom, where Mr. Baker says " If we are able to promote representative, representative government, not necessarily democracy, in a number of nations in the Middle East and bring more freedom to the people of that part of the world, it will have been a success,” he said. That distinction is crucial, according to one member of the expert working groups. “Baker wants to believe that Sunni dictators in Sunni majority states are representative,” the group member, who requested anonymity, said. " See, he is a "realist". That is a portion of the Foreign service that believes that "yes, he is a bastard, but he is our bastard". Jimmy B has a long and cosy history with the Saudi's and this Democracy thing is rocking his boat. If you know history and politics, Davebo, you would know that the far right and the far left actually hold similar positions on many things. That is why Hitler could be a Socialist. Both the far left and far right believe that dictatorships are more effective than messy democracy.



By: Dale in Atlanta

Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:35:24 +0000

Drongo: You know, I don't even know why I waste my eInk on nuts like you! It's a complete waste of time, trying talk, rational, logic, sense and commonsense to Leftists! First, you have NO commonsense, second, your intellecutal capability is severely atrophied, due to decades of inculcation by Leftists, anti-American Academia in America; third, because of your short-sightedness and Leftist proclivities, you avoid like the plauge, service in your country's military services; you have no practical experience in the world, the military, the government; uusally your only major experience in life is having taken a weekend spring break trip to Cancun, or Aruba, where you spent the majority of the time drunk, high, and/or trying to get on some sex-act video so it could be uploaded to some $14.95/per month pay-porn site. Your entire raison d'etre, is HATE - Bush, HATE - American; and there is NOTHING, that anyone can say or do, to wipe away the sometimes decades of brainwashing that has been absorbed by your petty minds courtesy of Academia, the Leftists, and the MSM; which your cranial cavity has sopped up like a diabetic in a candy store. With your Leftist and facile upbringings, and your ludicrous modern educations; you have NO foundation whatsoever in Citizenship, History, Anthropology, Sociology, Military History, Geography, World History, Western Civilization, the Classics, Social Studies, etc. Instead, you know all about "Kwanza", and the fact that we now have a "Fall Festival" and a "Winter Festival", because Halloween and Christmas have been outlawed, and your learning about Ramada and Hare Krishna, because they're Anti-American, and thus GOOD! Thus, you cannot put ANYTHING into HISTORICAL Context, because you are fundalmentally INCAPABLE, and thus we come Fullcircle, with you askeing the totally INANE question you ask above, which can ONLY be asked, if you have NO idea what you are asking, or why you are asking it, because you are completely operating off of the Leftist meme, that sounds like Homer Simpson (one of your cultural heroes, I'm sure??) on Duff Beer: Bush....BAAAAAADDDD, Iraq WAAAAAAAARRRR BAAAAAAADDDDD! First, let me state; having actually WORN the uniform of a Marine Officer and Intelligence specialist for a Dozen years, and having served in Iraq, the fist time, I ACTUALLY HAVE some practical Experience, Background, and KNOWLEDGE of that which I speak; UNLIKE 99.99% of the clueless Jacobites I foolishly waste my time trying to educate; I might as well spend my time knocking my head against a brick wall, for all the good it does me, but I'm a patient man, and the future of our Country depends upon me Poking people like you, RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES, until you either GET IT, or I damage your pea-sized logic holder! So, as a former Marine, and UNLIKE Lefists, who courtesy Hillary Clinton, figured out the "we care for the troops, but we don't support the war.." meme, back in 2001; which by the way, is a COMPLETE lie; you despise the Military, and everything it has ever done, because it's very existence is testimony that like all good Lefists, it has enabled you to be what you ARE, today, without you all EVER having had to make a contribution to it at all!, and thus you are driven by guilt and self-hate as a result of your concious decision to avoid Military Service, and thus you all seize upon the "we support the troops" line, hypocrasy and lies coming out of YOUR mouths, to attempt to protect and insulate yourselves against the anti-Patriotic and anti-American labels you so richly deserve; so unlike you, I ACTUALLY DO CARE about the "troops", because I also have served, and I know what it's like, and I still have dozens of friends, colleagues, and peers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, for the past 5 years; and I think about them, and their families, every day, and communicate w[...]



By: PD Quig

Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:08:55 +0000

What is happening now is simply a necessary phase in the war. America must lose and lose credibility, setting the stage for a return to isolationism...to be followed by another massive attack on our homeland. There was no way that we would learn from a single attack. The Bush Doctrine was a noble but premature attempt to avert the next disaster that we have coming. Americans have no stomach for a fight until we are gazing down at that stomach through a gaping wound in our viscera. Half of America doesn't even know who our enemy is, preferring to blame their own culture for Islamism. When the next attack comes what is now a schism in America may just become internecine battle. The only hope is that the next attack comes when a Democrat is in control—for that is the only way they will support a meaningful response.