Subscribe: Comments on Daisy's Dead Air: Herbs now, herbs forever
http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/feeds/1552200188625542112/comments/default
Added By: Feedage Forager Feedage Grade A rated
Language: English
Tags:
alas  daisy  don  effects  good  herbs  medicine  pain  people  question  side effects  side  western medicine  western  white 
Rate this Feed
Rate this feedRate this feedRate this feedRate this feedRate this feed
Rate this feed 1 starRate this feed 2 starRate this feed 3 starRate this feed 4 starRate this feed 5 star

Comments (0)

Feed Details and Statistics Feed Statistics
Preview: Comments on Daisy's Dead Air: Herbs now, herbs forever

Comments on Daisy's Dead Air: Herbs now, herbs forever





Updated: 2017-11-18T17:00:29.298-05:00

 



Anyway, I am not impressed with that site. And see...

2007-09-23T23:31:00.000-04:00

Anyway, I am not impressed with that site. And seeing as how you apparently endorse it, I feel like your concern with "ethnocentrism" in western medicine is not concern with the practiced ethnocentrism of the west in its varied forms, but rather the use of that perspective as a tool to defend your livlihood.

Wow, talk about your either/or thinking. My main problem with WESTERN thinking, white or not, is the DUALISM = If you don't agree with X, you must mean Y. No, I don't.

I didn't "endorse" the site, as much as I approve of people attempting new ideas and new alternatives, whatever they are, and want to encourage that. I think they are on the right track, but I am not a member of their organization. I am not a member of every organization on my blogroll--I just like what they are about or what they are attempting to do, how they do it, etc.

And similarly, you asked about native peoples (I thought that is what the ethnocentric question was about?) and so I assumed you were asking me about fair trade. Yes, I am fully aware the concept of fair trade is ethnocentric at base, but thought that was WHAT YOU WANTED. (?)

I do endorse the site as an alternative to outright stealing from tribes all over the world... As the debate goes, isn't it better to develop oil locally rather than depend on foreign oil? Same for herbs. That is properly called protectionism, not ethnocentrism.

Perhaps you mistake what I mean when I say "ethnocentric". I refer to AMA-style medicine being a result of the western approach, with all of the attendant assumptions and biases, few stronger than against native or herbal medicine.

Would you prefer native people were
ripped off upfront, as Merck does? Or would you prefer some fair trade with them as herbalists?
Merck and BigPharma offers no choice to this exploitive system.

And you know what, I think that may be why I was moved to comment in the first place, it felt like that was going on -- the use of a real live concern just to defend what is financially and identity-wise valuable to you as a white person.

And your job is what, again? I must have missed that.

How well do you do your job? Can I interrogate you about your job, too, or does this only go one way?

Again, I asked, do you take drugs or herbs regularly? Which ones?

I very much agree with you about how fucked-up western medicine is and the way that people at Alas were arguing with you.

Thank you, although I suspect you in fact ARE Dianne. :)

But your tone of oppressed self-righteous victim about herbs (there and here), when your location and practice and perspective is a heck of a lot more complicated than that... ugh (to me).

I was trying to sound like HerbWarrior, a superhero, not a victim. :( Sorry about that, I guess I just don't have that superhero vibe. (Self-righteous, well, of course--all the great superheroes are self-righteous.)



Yes I am white too. Your whiteness reads loud to m...

2007-09-23T20:45:00.000-04:00

Yes I am white too. Your whiteness reads loud to me, some underlying cultural approach.

About that Herbalists Without Borders site? Wow.

For many farmers, poverty is systemic, held in place by the following obstacles:

*Farmers living in poverty lack market access. How can anyone succeed in business lacking clients?

*Farmers living in poverty lack information and "market intelligence." How can anyone design a viable business plan lacking information?

*Farmers living in poverty lack seed money. How can anyone attract seed money lacking a viable business plan?


Wow -- talk about ethnocentrism!

"Poverty" is held in place by what, again? Lack of poor farmers' ability to participate in the existing market on its logics, not really about control of land and policy and resources by nations like the US and other dominator nations? And you're so up in arms about the ethnocentrism in western medicine but don't see this? Actually, maybe I am wrong: Do you see this?

Step 1: Bioregional Mapping

Translated: we know about HOW TO. Sustainable development starts with people following the steps we know about. The actual varied speficially rooted ways of actual indigenous peoples aren't good enough. And talking about land rights or ways that farmers can survive without learning the logics of the "market" ... nah.

Because you the ones who "lack" need to adopt our steps to be able to compete in our markets because after all, what other way is there to survive but to adopt our ways and provide herbs for all the affluent whitefolk who are part of that market?

STEP 2: Community Health Assets and Needs Assessment

Well, I've come across this language/model before. In my experience, it is a favorite language of a particular breed of white male poverty pimps. Seriously this is what I have seen. And it sounds sort of good, but in actual practice is often an excuse for white experts to get control (and often, grants or other resources for themselves).

Anyway, I am not impressed with that site. And seeing as how you apparently endorse it, I feel like your concern with "ethnocentrism" in western medicine is not concern with the practiced ethnocentrism of the west in its varied forms, but rather the use of that perspective as a tool to defend your livlihood. And you know what, I think that may be why I was moved to comment in the first place, it felt like that was going on -- the use of a real live concern just to defend what is financially and identity-wise valuable to you as a white person.

I very much agree with you about how fucked-up western medicine is and the way that people at Alas were arguing with you. But your tone of oppressed self-righteous victim about herbs (there and here), when your location and practice and perspective is a heck of a lot more complicated than that... ugh (to me).



Whatever the case, my question to you is: do you m...

2007-09-19T02:11:00.000-04:00

Whatever the case, my question to you is: do you make money as an herbalist?

Yes.

So here is my additional question to you: Are you white?

Yes. Are you?

And actually one more question: what's your take on any relationship between cultural appropriation and white-practiced/white-dominated alternative medicine?

Obviously, the native people in any given region will usually know the most about the plants that grow there. (That includes Europe.)

I am less concerned about cultural appropriation (in these days of multiculturalism), than I am with fair trade and a living wage, as well as protecting endangered species (Sandalwood, Goldenseal), etc. In my links, you can check out HERBALISTS WITHOUT BORDERS for more about that.



Okay, wait, more to say and one more question, pos...

2007-09-18T21:08:00.000-04:00

Okay, wait, more to say and one more question, posted too soon above. Got a little of the soup in me and this is what happens:

I think some part of my interest in this discussion is your equation of Western/eurocentric and the commenters' defense (or whatever it is) of Western medicine -- as opposed to "alternative medicine" which you seem to imply is not Eurocentric/western (am I getting this correctly? If not please correct where I'm not getting it)

So here is my additional question to you: Are you white?

And actually one more question: what's your take on any relationship between cultural appropriation and white-practiced/white-dominated alternative medicine?



Hi Daisy, I followed the discussion from Alas A Bl...

2007-09-18T20:51:00.000-04:00

Hi Daisy, I followed the discussion from Alas A Blog, but usually don't read that either (and didn't comment there) -- linked there randomly from somewhere else (basically I'm blog browsing while waiting for some soup to be ready, random as that is.)

Anyway. I just want to be sure I understand one thing. You wrote: Before continuing, Dianne needs to come clean regarding what she does for a living, as I have.

This is such an important issue overall, IMO!

And I am not 100% clear, I may have missed something and I am sorry if so but just to be sure I comprehend the situation:

You have said you are an herbalist, and that is listed as your "occupation" in your profile, but the industry says accounting. Whatever the case, my question to you is: do you make money as an herbalist?

I, by the way, do not work for or otherwise have any affiliation with any medical establishment/institution/context of any kind at all in any way, Western or alternative.



Zan, I've heard some theories going around, that m...

2007-09-12T10:05:00.000-04:00

Zan, I've heard some theories going around, that migraine sufferers are simply not absorbing Magnesium like regular folks, which is why they do so well with extra amounts. I've heard your story hundreds of times!

Question -- do you have a good recommendation for joint pain?

I'm pretty conservative, and I'd start with Omega 3s. I think our bodies are starved for them. I use flax, but if you are not vegetarian, use the purest fish oil you can find. The furthest away, usually, the more pure. Nordic Naturals is expensive, but from Norway and very clean compared to most North American brands. I'd look on the label for it to be made from tiny fish (like sardines and shrimp) rather than large ones that eat other fish (the big fish eat the little ones/the big fish eat the little ones--Radiohead)...eating a predator fish raises the mercury content.

In addition, Glucosamine is very good if you have no high-glucose/diabetic tendencies, but there are some reports of it raising blood sugar. Chondroitin is cartilage, usually shellfish cartilage, and probably a waste of money--not sure how they got marketed together. The herbs I would recommend are Turmeric and Tinospora; the first one is very safe, while I admit the second is Indian and I haven't studied everything about it. (As usual, I made a guinea pig of myself and used it, and so far, so good.)

Zyflamend is a great supplement, but damn, it is pricey. Columbia recently recommended it for prostate cancer intervention, which has sent the price through the roof. Shop around online for the cheapest! It's a great formula of critically-extracted Ayurvedic anti-inflammatory herbs.



My doctor is the same way. She shares an office wi...

2007-09-12T08:12:00.000-04:00

My doctor is the same way. She shares an office with a massage therapist/acupuncturist, plus she's big into prescribing suppliments in addition to traditional medicine. Now, if only I could find a way for my insurance to PAY for regular massage, I'd be set. It is the ONE thing that always, without fail, works on my fibro :(



Hey cool, I didn't know you were an herbalist. (A...

2007-09-11T23:30:00.000-04:00

Hey cool, I didn't know you were an herbalist. (A good friend of mine is getting some really good effects from seeing an herbalist, and I've been seriously considering looking into it myself.)

Not quite the same thing, but I control my depression/anxiety mess with B vitamins and oil caps. (And more herbaly, my UTI tendencies are kept completely in check with cranberry, celery seed, and yoghurt.)

The doctor's office I'm currently dealing with is actually a hybrid practice -- in addition to the whole Western medicine gig, they have on staff ... lemme look 'em up ... acupuncture, massage, yoga ... basically a bunch of stuff that has medical effects. The center's organising principle is, basically, that people should have access to all the health care that works, whether or not it's technocratic. Their initial patient interview form includes asking if people have regular meditational practices, including prayer.

The friend who recommended them to me was once prescribed a week's vacation ...



Well, I am beyond enamored of my BC pill. It's bee...

2007-09-11T20:12:00.000-04:00

Well, I am beyond enamored of my BC pill. It's been a godsend to me, getting rid of my insane PMDD within a few months. I tried a lot of other stuff first, but it's the only thing that's worked. And I was a monster. It was just....for half the month, I couldn't function. I was angry all the time, I was crying all the time, I was inable to focus, my appetite was swinging crazily -- I'd be hungry all the time. I mean, I'd eat a full meal and then, ten minutes later, it was like I hadn't eaten in weeks. I was calling in sick to work on a fairly regular basis because some days I'd wake up and just /know/ I couldn't deal with anyone that day. And not just in a 'i'll be annoyed' way.

That said, for my Lupus, fibro, migraines and joint pain, I prefer using a mixture of herbal/vitamins and Western meds. I have migraines so bad they've been confused for seizures and was put on Topomax as a preventative. That worked for about a year, then it stopped. I started getting headaches again. And I get them daily, repeatedly. That time, I had migraines every day for two months straight. So, I went back to my doctor and she put me on...magnesium. I started at 1000 mgs a day for two weeks, now I'm on 500 mgs a day. It's just bloody amazing. As soon as I started taking it, I could feel the pain stopping. I tell every one I know about it. Take the magnesium. It's cheap, it's effective and damn, no side effects! (Plus, it's good for all sorts of other things too. Your body likes it!) Now, if I feel a migraine starting, I just take a few extra mgs and bam...no more pain. And it's /way/ less toxic than Topomax. (Which, if you're needing it for seizures, is certainly a godsend on it's own. But if you can take something else instead that works as good or better? Well...)

Question -- do you have a good recommendation for joint pain? I get that a /lot/ with the Lupus and Fibro and it's awfully hard to treat. I have pain killers for it (Ultracet and Vicoden, mostly) but I'd rather take as few of those as I can. In addition to the Pill, I'm also taking Cymbalta (which is /amazing/ for the perif. neuropathy I've got. Stopped th at cold. And helps keep a reign on the pain, but I still have breakthroughs). I take the magnesium and Vitamin D suppliments. Don't want anything to interfere with those :)

You know, since I have a chronic illness (or twelve) I've learned to check everything I get prescribed before I take it. I ask a hell of a lot of questions to my doctor and I pull up everything I can find online too. (Which is how I knew that St. John's can screw with your BC. And I quickly told every female friend I had.) I just don't understand people who just take what the doctor gives them without question. Considering that something as simple as what vitamins you're taking can effect certain meds, it seems a little...shortsighted.

But maybe because I see more doctors in my 30s than my grandmother does, I'm a little biased :)



True; some friends of mine actually had to get pla...

2007-09-11T18:26:00.000-04:00

True; some friends of mine actually had to get plan B a few months ago because while he knew antibiotics messed with the pill she didn't. She thought her doctor would tell her all she needed to know and sie never told her what messes with it.

And the friend who takes st John's Wort is also a trans*guy, who also doesn't use the pill (lucky dog started T a few months ago).



Well, the risk still exists that some guy's wife o...

2007-09-11T17:50:00.000-04:00

Well, the risk still exists that some guy's wife or girlfriend might grab the St John's Wort and pop a few, and so I make sure to let them know about the birth control pill suppression.

And when I tell some women about that, they drop the bottle like it's the proverbial HOT POTATO! :D LOL



Well, it can be really dangerous to mess with horm...

2007-09-11T17:42:00.000-04:00

Well, it can be really dangerous to mess with hormones without a doctor's supervision, so I'd still have to get endo tests done and everything. But, injectable T isn't too expensive and as long as I have a prescription I can get it for fairly cheep from a few well-known and well-used online pharmacies (can't remember them off the top of my head since I can't get any yet).

Thanks. ^.^
And yeah, I don't need to worry about how they interact with BC, but thanks for the info. ^.^
You can never be too careful.
And I'm practically a vampire-- I put on 48spf when I go outside for less than an hour. ^.^;;
I actually welcome the other side-effects you mentioned--I tend towards mild insomnia and I've never remembered a dream in my life.



Drakyn, re: starting T. It's really too bad ther...

2007-09-11T17:16:00.000-04:00

Drakyn, re: starting T.

It's really too bad there can't be a kind of "pharm co-op", like for food buying. But unlike Canada, US BigPharm reserves all their "bargains" for doctors and not patients. growf!

Extract of St John's is best; phyto-caps are almost as good. Just remember: can suppress birth control pills, which I don't think is a concern of yours, but I tell everyone! ;) Also, it can increase sun sensitivity and easily cause sunburn, as some other anti-depressants also do. Lather on that sunscreen!

Some people report an increase in sleepiness, vivid dreaming, etc. All the same as Prozac and other SSRIs.



Great to see you too. ^.^Honestly, I've been inter...

2007-09-11T17:09:00.000-04:00

Great to see you too. ^.^
Honestly, I've been interested in natural methods for a while, but I never know what to trust. It's bad enough that I have to rely on the BigPharm companies when I start hrT. I don't want to have to take even more pills and injections.
And BC can have horrible side-effects. I had three bad periods in two months, lost over ten pounds in a few weeks (because I was too sick to eat), was more depressed, and my disphoria became worse when I went on BC for a couple months. And the funny thing is, I took it for period pain.

PS: Daisy, would you say the liquid phyto caps or liquid extracts are best for taking St. John's Wort? One of my friends takes the extract, but I saw you recommended the chasteberry caps to Mandolin.



Hey cute Drakyn! :) Great to see you! http://www....

2007-09-11T16:35:00.000-04:00

Hey cute Drakyn! :) Great to see you!

http://www.raysahelian.com/chasteberry.html

I was just talking about him today! I think he was an early formulator for Irwin Naturals or Nature's Secret? Either brand is pretty good. The women's "Steel Libido" formula is helpful for women in menopause, and pretty sure he added Vitex/Chaste Berry to it?

And yes, thank you for understanding my point. The most common drug given for bleeding is of course, birth control pills, and I guess everyone knows the side effects of that? (Infertility, increased cancer risk, weight gain, hormone-related edema, etc)

I was comparing Vitex in relatively small doses, to BC pills, as in my examples above.

Rainbow Light and a few other companies are even adding Vitex/Chaste Berry to women's multivitamins; which I am not too sure I even agree with. But they are doing it with confidence.



And may I first ask if you are a medical practitio...

2007-09-11T16:26:00.000-04:00

And may I first ask if you are a medical practitioner or affiliated in any way with BigPharm? (That includes being a consumer deeply invested in whatever way, with BigPharm.) My objection to your initial comment in the Alas thread was based not on the recommendation of an herbal therapy, but on the blanket statement that that therapy had no side effects.First off, you apparently did not read my post. Please go back and read these pertinent excerpts: I said there were no side effects--when I admit that I should have said FEW. (Or maybe I should have just been honest and said, I have never had anyone report any side effects to ME; in fact, I was comparing the weak side effects of herbs, to the serious side effects of the therapies being discussed.)~*Why do you all ignore the same negatives for prescription drugs? It’s like you have a blind spot for those–and I could dig up countless malpractice suits and trash-talking blogs dedicated to every single one.~*I will amend my statement: the side effects are negligible compared to either pharmaceutical or over-the-counter remedies.Does that sound like I said "ALL"?I draw a distinction between herb use and homeopathy, though - for all I know you may agree with me on that.I distinguish between homeopathic herbs, cell salts, and some of the strange, off-the-wall ones. I do not make categorical pronouncements--your side does that. Which type of homeopathy or which homeopathic herbs do you refer to?I think Arnica Montana (homeopathic) essential oil and gel, is a godsend, and I use this myself in the form of TRAUMEEL, an ointment far superior to BEN-GAY, ICY-HOT, or any of those. (Although it is notable that herbs were used to make those over-the-counter arthritis remedies, also.) I recommend it wholeheartedly and without reservation. I am less convinced it has much effect taken internally; but know of no negative side effects. When I took an oral prep of Traumeel, I felt there was only minimal (probably psychological) relief. I have also taken others such as Byronia Alba, etc, which I give only average grades. Newton homeopathics recently put out an "Eczema formula" that worked for a few days (on me), then quit. Win a few, lose a few. However, other people are having prolonged success, so it depends largely on the individual. And you continue to maintain that no herb has side effects as severe as prescription medications.For what they are used for, yes, I do maintain this. Examples:St John's Wort or Paxil; which has more side effects?Ex-Lax or Triphala; which has more side effects?Sudafed or Ma Huang USED PROPERLY (ephedra in 2-4 mg doses); which has more side effects?Benadryl or Nettles; which has more side effects? Most arthritic pain relievers (NSAIDS), Vicodin, Tramadol, compared with THC; which has more side effects? Caffeine or Ginseng?Effexor or 5-HTP?Ambien or Valerian?And so on. These are the common-sense comparisons I am making. I am not comparing Belladonna to Tylenol. And even if I did, Tylenol trashes the liver and IMO is far more damaging physically than a few wayward and unpleasant hallucinations. Again, we herbalists try to look at the BIG PICTURE--it's called being HOLISTIC. PC SPES is not a phantom like McCarthy's list of Communists; the details are easily tracked down via Google.Excuse me, but it's your lame-ass example, not mine. I've been a practicing herbalist for decades and I have never heard of your phantom. You bring it up, you defend it. So far, you can't even tell me which herb(s) it is. There is no HERB by that name. Is this the caliber of argument I am expected to engage with? Since you expect me to answer for your p[...]



K, so, I think it was pretty obvious that Daisy wa...

2007-09-11T16:17:00.000-04:00

K, so, I think it was pretty obvious that Daisy was saying that this herb, Chaste Berry, has fewer side-effects and less-strong side-effects than a Rx drug (taken for this same purpose) would.
Obviously, Daisy knows that herbs can be deadly and/or dangerous.
And one of the first google results for "chaste berry" has a list of tests done on chaste berry and menstrual/menopausal problems from 1999-2005; where it helped even when the tests were randomized and double-blind. http://www.raysahelian.com/chasteberry.html
Daisy, have you heard of this guy?
A search of amazon shows that his books have good reviews. And a google search of his name shows the first few pages are positive.



I think the PC SPES thing is a side-issue, and I w...

2007-09-11T16:16:00.000-04:00

I think the PC SPES thing is a side-issue, and I was not the one who brought it up in the other thread. I would be happy to not mention it again, since it has no bearing on my overall point.



Thank you Daisy for the link to Gaia herbs, I'll b...

2007-09-11T15:46:00.000-04:00

Thank you Daisy for the link to Gaia herbs, I'll be bookmarking and sharing that. ^.^
A friend of mine is really interested in herbal/natural alternatives and I know she'll be happy for the link.
When she's at her parent's home in Pennsylvania, she goes to this awesome homeopathic doctor her mom also goes to, but she doesn't have anyone here in NY. And I know she's always looking for a place to get oils and herbs and things.
She found out how much poison was in shampoo and soap a few months ago and has been searching for alternatives since. Recently she found a natural soap that she has started to use as both soap and shampoo and already her hair and skin is looking better and healthier.

And I just looked and there are Gaia stores in NY. ^.^


Brossa, YOU need to google for the articles. If you get into a discussion with someone it is up to you to provide support for your statements.

And I'll try to contribute a bit after I read the Alas thread Daisy.



Daisy-Per your invitation, and true to my word in ...

2007-09-11T14:56:00.000-04:00

Daisy-

Per your invitation, and true to my word in the Alas thread, I will move my comments to your blog, where you can feel less constrained.

I have no objection to the practice of herbology, by itself or in conjunction with 'Western' medicine. I draw a distinction between herb use and homeopathy, though - for all I know you may agree with me on that. As I said repeatedly in the other thread, many (but not all) herbs have demonstrable physiological effects.

My objection to your initial comment in the Alas thread was based not on the recommendation of an herbal therapy, but on the blanket statement that that therapy had no side effects. And you continue to maintain that no herb has side effects as severe as prescription medications. It's unclear to me what herb you are comparing to what drug (THC is pretty benign and amphotericin is pretty awful, but belladonna is pretty awful, etc.) but it's simply untrue as a blanket statement.

I will happily state for the record that many herbs, when taken appropriately, produce fewer side effects or are less toxic than prescription medications given appropriately for the same condition. Heck, maybe even 'most herbs'. But I can't let your "all" slip by unchallenged.

As for one of the other things brought up in the Alas thread: PC SPES is not a phantom like McCarthy's list of Communists; the details are easily tracked down via Google.