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Preview: Comments on: JENING does not appreciate Valve’s spy recloak meter change!

Comments on: JENING does not appreciate Valve’s spy recloak meter change!





Last Build Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 14:50:11 +0000

 



By: I

Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:48:13 +0000

I believes that JENING has some truly excellent points that one Mister Gabe Newell should take quick notice of! I also believes that the spy update is very useful! When I is on RED and on the second stage of Dustbowl, I can go behind enemies and stab them with his knife! Then, I cloaks and runs away into the large building near the point! I picks up ammo to recharge his cloak, then runs straight back into combat, or waits for when he is needed most! I feels that the spy update helps new and experienced spies alike to be ready for the destruction of sentries and stabs in the backs of heavies and medics! The update also keeps spies motivated and pumped, with no more waiting for their cloaks to recharge!



By: W+M1 Bootymonsta / JfeAtusR

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 03:24:23 +0000

1. Reduces Need For Smart Tactics: an experienced spy must learn is conservation of cloak and the timing of when to engage and disengage the cloak! ]]] Learning cloak conservation has been a long standing challenge of the spy, however, i've always felt it was unnecessarily difficult, inhibiting the flow of being effective with egregious downtime the other classes don't have. The 'ammo = cloak' change makes playing the Spy less like waiting for an ubercharge and more like obtaining metal to build with. 2. Makes Cloak An Ability Without A Tradeoff: ]]] I'd say cloak has several tradeoffs. *Doesn't work when on fire. *Doesn't work in water or immediately leaving it. *Doesn't mask the sound of walking or falling. *It is nullified when bumped into. *Has no visual cloak shimmer when someone bumps into the Spy. *Has no visual indication when the Spy applies a disguise then cloaks too early (exposing the Spy with the disguise cloud AND draining cloak meter) 3. Encourages Unengaged, “Lazy” Spies: JENING has seen more people play spy tonight who just run around from ammo box to ammo box to remain cloaked all round without engaging enemies! A spy should not be able to go five straight minutes or more without ever dropping cloak! ]]] An uncloaked Spy is either 'A) about to kill, or B) about to die.', the Spy needs to be able to cloak for extended periods of time. 4. It Does Not Address The Spy’s Biggest Weakness — It May Even Make It Worse: JENING thinks that the spy’s biggest weakness had nothing to do with the duration of his cloak. The spy’s biggest problem continues to be random spychecking which all other classes do often and without consequence. Giving the spy potentially infinite cloak not only does not solve the random spychecking problem, it might encourage people to do it more since there is an even higher probability now that an “empty” space could actually be a cloaked spy ]]] Having the opportunity to stay cloaked longer does decrease the effectiveness of spychecking their teammates that are suspected spies, since you can simply avoid the obviously paranoid enemies, it is very true that it does little to curb pyro's who burn random open spaces / soldiers / demos / or anyone who will shoot at thin air. What suggestion does Jening have, to decrease "empty space" spy checks?



By: Simon

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 05:29:07 +0000

Interesting comments about the upgrade. I asked you the other night what you thought about it and you said you didn't like it, now i know why. While I play spy very little, I do play the engineer pretty regularly and here are my thoughts on his upgrade: Overall I like the upgrades. The upgradeable dispenser is nice but I would have liked to have seen some extra protection against ubers, or a way to remotely clear zappers or have a dispenser directly feed a sentry if it's close enough. Basically, anything to allow more freedom of movement for the engie. - Simon



By: Redhawg

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:20:34 +0000

JENING's good friend REDHAWG agrees that this change reduces the learning curve for spies immensely. Part of learning to be a good spy is figuring where, and when, to cloak and disengage your cloak while traversing the level. There's a ton of risk (and fun) in sprinting toward a pile of crates with your cloak draining down and the enemy team running toward the front lines around you -- do I charge straight ahead and risk detection by bumping into the enemy, or should I take a longer path but risk my cloak dropping out? Granted its still only 10 seconds of cloak, but I feel that with the ammo box change its a lot easier to for spies to get around now. I was always an advocate of the health cabinets restoring cloak, as I think the home base for the team should always restore everything to full aside from uber charge. The new cloak meter mechanic minimizes one of the core mechanics I think that makes spy challenging AND fun to play. For example, what if engineers could no longer freely place their sentries on all buildable portions of the map? What if all the "good" sentry nest positions we know where marked specifically and the engineer could ONLY build there? It would make it much easier for new engineers to be effective, just like the spy change, at the cost of the challenge and fun of learning for yourself where to place them.



By: {GG} KING OF SPAIN

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:15:49 +0000

How ironic it is that after I used to ask for this update, and now that it's here i don't want it. I dont have any problem with recharging cloak with ammo, but random spy-checking has gone way up at least in the surge of spying after the update. I think we'll have to see the long term effects but it honestly discourages me from playing when everyone is paranoid 100% of the time.



By: NIKO

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:09:00 +0000

NIKO thinks this encourages, as JENING said; "lazy" Spies. The new teleporters are useful, but take longer to sap and there aren't many visual changes. New dispensers are okay... and the Sticky thing is fine... AndMeci/ Crit things are fine... BUT: Why? Cloak isn't "ammo"... D=



By: JENING

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:59:45 +0000

JENING thanks his good friend Alkydere for the competing viewpoint! JENING does wholeheartedly agree with Alkydere's last point that making the spy's cloak less visible while alight (while still taking the same damage) would be a very good, and balanced, change that would directly counter the problem of random spychecking!



By: Alkydere

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:36:52 +0000

J-J-Jenning is probably the best spy I have ever seen in action, so I value Jenning's opinion on the spy matter very highly. However, I cannot agree 100%. I must say that this update was needed, but will cause an unfortunate increase in spy checking. Also, I apologize if my post his a bit jumbled, it's half stream of thought. I personally believe that the potential infinite cloak was a needed update. The spy in my opinion is a very elite class full of, dare I say it, elitist super spies such as Jenning. Until tonight, the spy has had a very steep skill curve, which means there are not just a dozen poor spies to every super spy, but several gross poor spies. As spies are one of the major counters to sentry heavy defenses by design, this means that only a very small percentage of spies can be effective against a wall of sentries. Let's face it, the engineer is not the hardest class to be good at, a new player can pick up how to do decent sentry placement with only a few rounds of observation and experimentation. With the new engineer buff of level three support buildings, a spy buff was needed. Valve understands the need and desire for there to be truly elite players of all classes, but ultimately they want to make it so that all players can play and have fun with any class, and fun requires a minimal probability of success. I also must disagree on where the worst spy checking will occur. Spies can now remain indefinitely cloaked around dispensers, meaning they can lay in wait around an otherwise isolated dispenser that was put up to resupply a team. Pyros cannot spy check every inch of open space, instead they will camp dispensers and ammo spawns. That being said, I have two final thoughts: Spies who pick up ammo and health while cloaked aren't the brightest of the bunch. Spontaneously vanishing ammo and health packs will alert players of a spy's general location, especially if they are already trying to hunt the spy down. Also, the fire effect on burning, cloaked spies should be muted. I mean the flames should only be about as visible as a cloaked spy when he runs into an enemy player or takes damage. This would drastically reduce the pyro's role of end-all spy checker, and give spies a better chance.



By: Gearbox

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:55:31 +0000

Point by point addressing begins NOW! 1) I agree that it reduces the learning curve for spies, and makes cloak maintenance easier. However, I believe that this new effect increases the combat time for spies, allowing them to jump right back into the thick of things. Every other class can use full medpak and ammo-crate to fully recharge, and now Spies can restore their combat effectiveness instantly as well (rather than waiting for an arbitrary length of time for the cloak to recharge). So, I would argue that the tactics change, but are not necessarily worse. 2) The inability to attack while cloaked is a tradeoff. I would argue that this change reduces cloak's limitations (namely the time limitation) while creating another one (reliance on ammo crates for infinite cloak) 3) This is true, and only through mocking lazy spies can we rid ourselves of them. 4) This is also true. But it strikes at the heart of the matter: How do you limit the effectiveness of spychecking, while not making cloaked/disguised spies undetectable. I will now go burn a bunch of lazy spies, and level my dispenser to level 3, but these are my current thoughts.



By: Langrad

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:41:07 +0000

Long time reader first time poster. I think valve makes a section in its forums for people to post thoughts on each new update. I figure they will make alot of changes to this update to make spies a bit tougher (just the way you like it).